Cloud Flying - Experimental

Steve Hill wrote:

Of all the odd topics that come across this newsgroup this one made me
wonder why it's even being discussed??


#1, because it's poorly understood. And there's just as great a lack of
understanding on one side of the issue as on the other.

#2, because it offers a real kick in the pants for some soaring
achievements when it is properly understood and the equipment, training,
and operation is in accordance with applicable FAR's, and a
knowledgeable assessment of the actual weather conditions is made.

Believe me, we've been through this before, and when we keep the
emotions out of it, and stick to what we do know, not to just what we
think we know, some good comes out of it -- no "arguing" is necessary.

What we don't want to see is some newby going out and trying it by
himself without a clue as to what he's setting himself up for. And by
"newby" I mean anybody who hasn't complied with all the caveats in #2,
above.


...remember that you
may be jeopardizing someone elses life and safety far more than your own if
you elect to enter IMC conditions illegally....

I see we are already on common ground.


Jack

I guess my point is...while there are a few guys out there for which this
might actually be plausible as a reality...for most everyone flying a
sailplane it's questionable at best. For every side to the argument, there's
a counter. I live and fly near and in the mountains. The last thing in the
world, you, I or anyone would want to be doing is climbing into Cu, knowing
that the MOCA is higher than you are...what really worries me is when a
"newby" reads something like this and goes..."Whoa...I knew those rules
about remaining clear of the clouds were bogus..." and runs off to try out
their new skill, without any of the requisite training and ends up dead, or
worse...killing someone else.

I'm sure Bill's right. If you have all the approved instruments, and
certificates and the gumption to pull it off...I'm sure you can. Heck they
do in England. I do remember reading in Helmut Reichmann's book about
climbing into a cloud one day at a contest where one minute he was going up
like 2000 fpm and the next going down getting hailed on just as bad...

If the goal is to get more soaring pilots out there and a bigger goal is
keeping them safe, then I believe we have an obligation to not run around
validating what is pretty much agreed to as a good way to get into trouble
in a glider. Maybe it's just me...but the older i get, the more I respect
that adage about leaving cloudbase earlier and moving on to the next...I'll
go back to shutting my mouth.


Steve.

On Feb 6, 5:02 pm, Steve Hill
wrote:
...what really worries me is when a
"newby" reads something like this and goes..."Whoa...I knew those rules
about remaining clear of the clouds were bogus..." and runs off to try out
their new skill, without any of the requisite training and ends up dead, or
worse...killing someone else.

Replace text in quotes above by pretty much anything we discuss here
and there won't be much to talk about if we follow your rules.

As Jack pointed out, to some folks this is not "a big deal" because
they have all the skills and tools necessary to do it safely. And I
*am* interested in reading about stuff like this, though the only
instrument time I have is a couple hours under the hood while I was
working on my PPL ASEL, because I'm sure I can learn something.

-Tom

Steve Hill wrote:

[....]

I'm sure Bill's right. If you have all the approved instruments, and
certificates and the gumption to pull it off...I'm sure you can. Heck they
do in England.

[....]


Nothing wrong with your pointing out the bad parts, Steve. Ain't nothin'
bogus about safety. It should be understood that there are good parts,
too, when it's legal to soar in cloud.

There is an expressed concern throughout the community about mid-airs,
but it doesn't sound like there is any great rush to install
transponders. The internal dissembling required for an owner to avoid
installing a transponder in his ship season after season is at least as
disturbing as any newby's assumption that he can get away with flying in
cloud.

The use of TPAS and the like is a partial step in the direction of
enhanced traffic avoidance and so cheap that these units ought to be
flying off the shelves. http://www.zaonflight.com/

Cumulus http://www.soarmn.com/cumulus/zaon.htm and
Wings and Wheels http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
offer reasonable deals on this type of equipment, and so much else.


Jack

On Feb 6, 7:25 pm, "5Z" wrote:
On Feb 6, 5:02 pm, Steve Hill
wrote:

...what really worries me is when a
"newby" reads something like this and goes..."Whoa...I knew those rules
about remaining clear of the clouds were bogus..." and runs off to try out
their new skill, without any of the requisite training and ends up dead, or
worse...killing someone else.

Replace text in quotes above by pretty much anything we discuss here
and there won't be much to talk about if we follow your rules.

As Jack pointed out, to some folks this is not "a big deal" because
they have all the skills and tools necessary to do it safely. And I
*am* interested in reading about stuff like this, though the only
instrument time I have is a couple hours under the hood while I was
working on my PPL ASEL, because I'm sure I can learn something.

-Tom

Good! If I can get the glider set up for it Ill make sure to post my
record breaking flights here. Please let the SSA know you would like
to hear more about cloud flying too. They have not been receptive to
having articles written for the magazine on the subject and Shawn has
spent years trying to get a chance to talk at the convention about it.

On Feb 6, 7:54 pm, Jack wrote:
Steve Hill wrote:

[....]

I'm sure Bill's right. If you have all the approved instruments, and
certificates and the gumption to pull it off...I'm sure you can. Heck they
do in England.

[....]

Nothing wrong with your pointing out the bad parts, Steve. Ain't nothin'
bogus about safety. It should be understood that there are good parts,
too, when it's legal to soar in cloud.

There is an expressed concern throughout the community about mid-airs,
but it doesn't sound like there is any great rush to install
transponders. The internal dissembling required for an owner to avoid
installing a transponder in his ship season after season is at least as
disturbing as any newby's assumption that he can get away with flying in
cloud.

The use of TPAS and the like is a partial step in the direction of
enhanced traffic avoidance and so cheap that these units ought to be
flying off the shelves. http://www.zaonflight.com/

Cumulus http://www.soarmn.com/cumulus/zaon.htm and
Wings and Wheels http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
offer reasonable deals on this type of equipment, and so much else.

Jack

Some of us got into this sport because its (supposed to be) cheap. I
know, I know, How much is your life worth? But the fact is, I own a
glider because I dont have any money left. Cause and effect at its
finest. the threat of mid airs are evident in any type of flying.
Obviously the guys flying in high density traffic areas (not central
iowa) ahve more to worry about than others.

Of course if you have a transponder, you best turn it on, other wise
you become cream of business jet.

We still are allowed to cloud climb in the UK because
our representatives negotiated very hard to keep that
right.

One of the standard ways of making cross-country progress
back in the Olympia 2 and Skylark 3 days was to cloud
climb to the top of a cumulus cloud, pop out of the
side, head for another cumulus cloud and then repeat
the process. We had and still have rules about cloud
climbing, which includes sending a radio message on
a set frequency to alert other gliders that we are
doing this, which at least assures separation from
other gliders.

However we have to observe strict VMC rules in most
sorts of controlled airspace, and the country is unfortunately
increasingly being covered in Class D, which every
little tinpot regional airfield seems to be able to
get.

Fortunately there is still some remaining Class G (open
airspace) where we can still legally cloud climb. As
our damp little island has lots of cloud, often with
a very low base, this is a useful right for us to have.

Derek Copeland

At 23:30 06 February 2007, Kirk.Stant wrote:

Steve, cloud flying in a glider is just as illegal
as cloud flying in
any aircraft. If you have the equipment, training,
rating, and
clearance (where needed, which nowadays is just about
anywhere you
would want to do it) it is perfectly legal and safe.

It's just not common in the US mainly because it's
not allowed during
contests.

And please don't confuse a glider using a Cu to climb
with a
powerplane on an IFR flight - totally different objectives!

I would love to be able to climb up into a Cu and pop
out the side -
legally. But I'm not in the situation to get an intrument
rating or
the instruments in my glider - that I would have to
pull out for every
contest I wanted to go to.

With the advances in electronics, the possibility that
my PDA could
become a nice EADI might be enough to change my mind.

It's funny, how the Brits, with horrible airspace restrictions,
seem
to manage to let gliders enjoy cloud flying, and we
in the US don't,
for the most part.

Probably due to early and excessive exposure to 2-33s....

Kirk
66

And great fun it is too.
=20
Good reason not to go down same line with UK contests.
=20
Rory=20
=20
Subject: Cloud Flying - Experimental
Author: Derek Copeland mailtoerek
Copeland =20
Date/Time: 14:00 07 February 2007

________________________________

We still are allowed to cloud climb in the UK because
our representatives negotiated very hard to keep that
right.=20

... Derek Copeland

At 23:30 06 February 2007, Kirk.Stant wrote:


It's just not common in the US mainly because it's
not allowed during
contests.

something that the FAA specifically states as illegal?

Got a specific FAR to back up that statement?
Bill Daniels

Bill

Could you enlighten us as to what equipment we would
need to have installed in our gliders in order to be
able
to legally fly IFR in the U.S.?

OK, I'll try but it's been a few years since I was IFR current so I may miss
some newer requrements.

I think the best way to answer this is to say that, in general, the FAR's
require you to have the equipment needed for the flight you plan to
undertake. For example, if an airplane pilot wants to fly to an airport
that has only a NDB (Non Directional Beacon) approach, then the airplane has
to have and ADF. If it has only a GPS approach, you need GPS. Equipment
onboard is coded as "/" codes such as /R which means the aircraft is capable
of area navigation. "/A" means you have a Mode C transponder.

Obviously, gliders would never be flying approaches in VMC but might want to
cloud fly or exploit Class A airspace. Class A airspace has it's own
requirements,for example DME (Distance Measuring Equipment) which I think
can be satisfied with GPS. Of course, you also need an attitude indicator,
a quality 760 channel communication transceiver and a transponder. I think
GPS ground track will suffice for heading. (A glider flies so slow that
tere is usually a big difference between heading and track - it's track
you're interested in anyway.)

The way it works is for the pilot to request a clearance that defines a
flight or a portion of a flight and then ATC will respond with an offered
clearance that may, or may not be exactly what the pilot requested. The PIC
then has the option of accepting, rejecting or asking for a modification of
that clearance . This is called "negotiating" a clearance. As above, you
have to have the equipment (and skills) required to fly the clearance you
accept.

A glider, which can not hold an assigned altitude, would be requesting
"block" or "cruise" clearances that define a 3-dimensional block of airspace
in which the glider would be cleared to fly. No other aircraft would be
cleared into that airspace - you would "own" it. As the glider moves cross
country, the block would move with it subject to ongoing negotiations with
ATC. My discussions with ATC representatives have centered around two types
of clearances. For thermalling in cloud, a "climb while holding present
positon" with defined altitudes would be requested. For XC glides, a cruise
clearance to a specified waypoint along a defined route with defined
altitudes would be requested.

This is way too brief and has skipped over some very important points that
would be in an instrument training program. You can see that operating a
glider under IFR rules adds a lot to the pilot workload and may become
overwhelming. One of my personal equipment requirements when flying
airplanes IFR was a working autopilot. Of course, any time you find
yourself in class E airspace and clear of clouds, you can cancel your IFR
clearance and proceed VFR as usual.

Bill Daniels

"Soarin Again" wrote in message
...
something that the FAA specifically states as illegal?

Got a specific FAR to back up that statement?
Bill Daniels

Bill

Could you enlighten us as to what equipment we would
need to have installed in our gliders in order to be
able
to legally fly IFR in the U.S.?