If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
Cloud Flying - Experimental
"Stefan" wrote in message . .. Bill Daniels schrieb: Getting an instrument rating is probably the hardest rating to get. It's hard because of the navigation and approach procedures. None of them is needed for simple cloud flying. Just flying by reference to gyros is pretty simple. True, but in the USA there is no glider instrument rating. You must first get an airplane instrument rating and all that implies. Bill Daniels |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
Cloud Flying - Experimental
girls,
Stop winning, Get instuctor to teach you cloud flying ! Yo, bunch of pussies ! RW |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
Cloud Flying - Experimental
Just got back from the soaring convention in Memphis. There were 2 talks
by pilots that have been flying on IFR clearances. Shawn Knickerbocker talked about how he set up his Nimbus for cloud flying, and how he goes about getting and flying under a clearance. He pointed out that most recent gliders come into this country under an experimental certificate. If you look at the flight manual, you'll likely find a section specifying the equipment needed for cloud flying. Typically the only additional equipment needed is a turn-and-bank. In the U.S.A. you'll also need a transponder. He also stated it makes a lot of sense to also have an artificial horizon, and a redundant battery system. Before he started cloud flying, he spent some time with local controllers to understand their environment and how to work a clearance. He also pointed out that you want to be careful which clouds you climb into - some can tear your wings off. On the other hand, a good cloud is a smooth climb. The second talk was by Gordon Boettger about his 2061 KM flight in class A airspace. He restricts his flying to VFR conditions, but has a T&B and transponder to be legal to fly in IFR airspace. He put a lot of effort into getting agreements with the centers whose airspace he flies through. He even mentioned a SouthWest airline conversation with center. They wanted to climb, but couldn't because of the glider above them. It is possible, and legal, to set up a glider for IFR flight. You can get a clearance. This isn't for the casual pilot. Steve Derek Copeland wrote: The biggest danger in cloud flying is not spinning or mid-air collisions, it's getting into a spiral dive. Without reference to blind flying instruments, it is very easy to get into an ever steepening turn which will eventually cause the glider to overspeed and to be over stressed by excessive g. As long as the turn is reasonably accurate, the apparent direction of gravity will always be straight down the vertical axis of the glider, so your senses will tell you that you are flying straight when you are turning quite steeply. If you do actually straighten up from a turn, you will then get a strong sensation that you are now turning in the opposite direction. Some years ago a member of the Lasham based Imperial College Gliding Club got a Skylark into a spiral dive while cloud climbing. He ended up pulling so much g that he blacked out and then collapsed through the seat pan, which is stressed to 9g for a 110 kg person, and then out through the bottom of the glider. He came round to find himself falling through the cloud without a glider, pulled the ripcord on his parachute and survived relatively unharmed. When the wreckage of the glider was found, the canopy was still fastened and the seat belts were still done up, so he definitely hadn't bailed out! In the UK the only operational requirements for cloud flying are that all occupants of the glider must wear a serviceable parachute and be trained in its use (which saved the life of the above pilot). However, in my opinion, you would be mad to enter cloud without at least a turn and slip indicator, plus serviceable basic instruments, and some training in blind flying techniques. If you get into a spin, the best thing to do is to hold the glider in the spin by applying full up elevator and into spin rudder until you drop out of the bottom of the cloud and then to recover. It is possible to recover from spins by reference to the instruments alone, and I have done this under the hood with a safety pilot, but it is not easy and the worst bit is getting the glider back under control once the spin has stopped. Derek Copeland At 22:06 07 February 2007, Jb92563 wrote: Experimental COA certificate with the Operating limits letter is what you are allowed to do with your experimental glider. Your flight test program that you submitted, documented and performed successfully forms the flight capabilities of your COA. In other words...if your flight test program to get the COA done did not include spins etc...and hence not in your operating limits letter then you are not legal to perform those manuevers. Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial horizon will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the turbulence, G' loads etc will soon cause you to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results in overspeeding and overstressing the structure before you exit the cloud. If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately you can slowly put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right corner with full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin which by its very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress the aircraft, although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once clear of cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having overstressed anything and live to learn never to do that sort of thing again without the proper instruments. You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper range if you are unable to recover from the spin. All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable of a predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the proper C of G range. If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy and will kill you the first time you mess up!!! Ray |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
Cloud Flying - Experimental
On Feb 11, 4:55 pm, Steve wrote:
Just got back from the soaring convention in Memphis. There were 2 talks by pilots that have been flying on IFR clearances. Shawn Knickerbocker talked about how he set up his Nimbus for cloud flying, and how he goes about getting and flying under a clearance. He pointed out that most recent gliders come into this country under an experimental certificate. If you look at the flight manual, you'll likely find a section specifying the equipment needed for cloud flying. Typically the only additional equipment needed is a turn-and-bank. In the U.S.A. you'll also need a transponder. He also stated it makes a lot of sense to also have an artificial horizon, and a redundant battery system. Before he started cloud flying, he spent some time with local controllers to understand their environment and how to work a clearance. He also pointed out that you want to be careful which clouds you climb into - some can tear your wings off. On the other hand, a good cloud is a smooth climb. The second talk was by Gordon Boettger about his 2061 KM flight in class A airspace. He restricts his flying to VFR conditions, but has a T&B and transponder to be legal to fly in IFR airspace. He put a lot of effort into getting agreements with the centers whose airspace he flies through. He even mentioned a SouthWest airline conversation with center. They wanted to climb, but couldn't because of the glider above them. It is possible, and legal, to set up a glider for IFR flight. You can get a clearance. This isn't for the casual pilot. Steve Derek Copeland wrote: The biggest danger in cloud flying is not spinning or mid-air collisions, it's getting into a spiral dive. Without reference to blind flying instruments, it is very easy to get into an ever steepening turn which will eventually cause the glider to overspeed and to be over stressed by excessive g. As long as the turn is reasonably accurate, the apparent direction of gravity will always be straight down the vertical axis of the glider, so your senses will tell you that you are flying straight when you are turning quite steeply. If you do actually straighten up from a turn, you will then get a strong sensation that you are now turning in the opposite direction. Some years ago a member of the Lasham based Imperial College Gliding Club got a Skylark into a spiral dive while cloud climbing. He ended up pulling so much g that he blacked out and then collapsed through the seat pan, which is stressed to 9g for a 110 kg person, and then out through the bottom of the glider. He came round to find himself falling through the cloud without a glider, pulled the ripcord on his parachute and survived relatively unharmed. When the wreckage of the glider was found, the canopy was still fastened and the seat belts were still done up, so he definitely hadn't bailed out! In the UK the only operational requirements for cloud flying are that all occupants of the glider must wear a serviceable parachute and be trained in its use (which saved the life of the above pilot). However, in my opinion, you would be mad to enter cloud without at least a turn and slip indicator, plus serviceable basic instruments, and some training in blind flying techniques. If you get into a spin, the best thing to do is to hold the glider in the spin by applying full up elevator and into spin rudder until you drop out of the bottom of the cloud and then to recover. It is possible to recover from spins by reference to the instruments alone, and I have done this under the hood with a safety pilot, but it is not easy and the worst bit is getting the glider back under control once the spin has stopped. Derek Copeland At 22:06 07 February 2007, Jb92563 wrote: Experimental COA certificate with the Operating limits letter is what you are allowed to do with your experimental glider. Your flight test program that you submitted, documented and performed successfully forms the flight capabilities of your COA. In other words...if your flight test program to get the COA done did not include spins etc...and hence not in your operating limits letter then you are not legal to perform those manuevers. Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial horizon will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the turbulence, G' loads etc will soon cause you to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results in overspeeding and overstressing the structure before you exit the cloud. If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately you can slowly put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right corner with full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin which by its very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress the aircraft, although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once clear of cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having overstressed anything and live to learn never to do that sort of thing again without the proper instruments. You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper range if you are unable to recover from the spin. All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable of a predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the proper C of G range. If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy and will kill you the first time you mess up!!! Ray Steve, I was there too. Also had several meals with Shawn. Transponder actually isnt required, even though many think it is, for IFR flying. He did say that it is a good idea and makes getting clearances about 90% easier. I am in a different boat than he is though as I have an amatuer built glider without a operating handbook so I must prove that my glider meets a suitable standard. |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
Cloud Flying - Experimental
Hi folks
Thought I'd add my 2cts and hope it's useful. I've cloud flown a reasonable amount, mostly competitions, all in the UK. Gliders cloud-flown include Vega, Bocian, Duo, LS8, ASW27, ASW22, ASH25 and Nimbus4. Regardless of the legal requirements, I’ve adopted the following practical approach and it’s stood me in good stead (I’m not an instructor, so you’ll have to make your own minds up). 1) Minimum equipment (for me) is artificial horizon and GPS. Everything else is merely desireable and I’ll explain why. Clouds are wet and cold. Eventually ice forms and your ASI WILL be rendered useless (I have 2 pitots on the Nimbus4, but both block within a few minutes of each other). With no ASI (and no AH) then your T&S should immediately be used to level up and LEAVE! IMHO it’s a backup instrument in a glider. 2)Know where you are and heading. I've found that the GPS provides very accurate direction whilst circling (thermalling), albeit some 35 - 40 degrees behind for direction. By commencing a levelling turn 40degrees before desired heading, the final heading is achieved. One can thereby change from thermalling to straight flight pretty accurately. The compass is very difficult to fly, with its progressing and recessing, but better pilots than I use them regularly. It often (usually) gets bumpy during the climb and sometimes darn right turbulent. The cloud climb characteristics seem to work through layers: The lift accelerates just below cloudbase (latent heat of condensation) and the 'feel' often changes to slightly more active air (it is)! This continues into the cloud (did I mention that all radio calls, trimming, etc are done in the clear below, leaving plenty of time to CONCENTRATE?). The turn rate and trimming are already done and the glider should pretty well fly itself hands off with SMALL movements to counter any developing TRENDS. Established in the circling climb, I scan the ASI, cotton yaw string, horizon, GPS and VSI (keep reading before you get overly excited - this is the PRACTICAL approach). I look for the trend as much as the specific value. If the AH shows the turn increasing, I take off a little bank and vice versa. Sounds easy, but of course as bank increases, the speed increases (back to school) and when I unbank I need to push a little to maintain speed. You'd be amazed how this basic becomes difficult with a visual term of reference. Thermalling the Nimbus in clear air, I aim for 57 knots for a reasonable 4knot climb. IN the cloud in the same thermal I expect the climb rate to increase to closer to 6knots, but I’ll let the speed vary from 50 to 65knots without pulling or pushing too hard. Any more than that and the flaps will have to go away. Small movements, anticipation, look at the trend. OK, it’s going well, I’m 2000’ into the cloud and lift improves to 8knots with a little re-centering. Now the canopy is getting very wet and that yaw string is glued and useless. However, it was helpful to establish what ‘normal’ felt like and I can now ignore it and scan the remaining instruments (ASI, horizon, GPS and VSI) . It’s getting darker and a little rougher. As the lift increased I had to allow the glider to take a slightly higher attitude on the AH to avoid excessive speed. Can someone explain that? That means as the glider bounces out of the strongest bit of lift I need to push quite positively and quickly to avoid flying too slow. I use my bum to tell me when the lift reduces or increases! VSI is too slow to respond. The wings are very difficult to see now (I did an occasional glance earlier when it was smooth) as ice starts to cover the canopy inside and out. The ASI has packed in, but that’s OK because I know what ‘normal’ looks like on the AH. Instrument scan now AH, GPS, VSI. Lift is now 9knots and still increasing. It’s getting colder, I'm cold and forcing myself to relax on the stick, but there’s a lighter patch on each revolution of the turn that tells me I’m near the edge of the cloud. Often the case higher up I’ve found, even if entering the middle. The noise has increased. I particularly notice it as I swallow and clear my ears in the 10knot lift. It’s the ice forming on the wings. The controls are sluggish and with my small anticipatory movements the ice is slowly freezing the available movement in the controls. I deliberately ‘stir’ the stick in a quick wide circle to break free the controls. Time to seriously consider leaving. I’ve been scanning the GPS, so have a mental picture of which way ‘out’ or the desired heading is. 40 degrees before heading I bank over to level up, pushing quite positively. The GPS is within 10 degrees (that will do) the AH is pretty much there on the attitude and pretty level (my scan is now AH and GPS only). It seems a bit slapdash maybe, but keeping it within limits is the key. With 10knots lift and now some 10,000’ extra height, flying precisely is less an issue, flying safely is everything. More turbulence as I fly along, but I resist the temptation to push, pull or bank as my senses cry out. I only follow the instruments and nothing else. Suddenly it’s light, brilliant sun and I’m free. Check the horizon (real) against the AH, but prepare to re-enter – keep scanning in case it’s just a small gap. I keep a little extra speed to compensate for the icy wings – just a guess since the ASI is still frozen. I re-trim for level flight. Finally clear, the view is stunning. Another 5,000’ of cloud above, the ground a long way down and a long glide beckoning into the warm air, slower because of the ice, with occasional ‘stirs’ to keep the controls free. I find that it’s a very useful skill that needs practice and I do get rusty. Most important of all, I practiced a ‘get out’. In free air I experimented with various attitudes and flap settings. For my Nimbus4 with the airbrakes extended, flaps in neutral and the trimmer next to that funny mark, controls held firm, the glider will eventually recover from pretty much any attitude. I practiced that in clear air, so I know it will work if I loose it in the cloud. I just have to get the brakes out before their limiting speed. If the AH or electric fail (it’s happened to me) then the AH flag will pop out and you’ve got a minute or two to straighten and escape. This is when the T&S comes into its own as a backup – to escape. The batteries will get cold and don’t perform as well. Can;t have too much power. Personally I don’t trust the new electronic ‘horizons’. I prefer a gyro that continues spinning after the power fails. With practice, one can centre and re-centre the climb as the core moves. It needs a mental picture of the turn and that’s where the GPS direction helps. It can be a very rewarding experience, but best learnt in a 2-seater with a grown-up! It’s a little scary at first, but incredibly rewarding. Other factors include temperature (yes I do use the guage), who's below, who's nearby and whether the increased drag with wet / icy wings makes the whole exercise beneficial. I wouldn’t try it in a thunderstorm! Hope this helps – I await the flamers … Pete Harvey |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Some flying vids I made... | [email protected] | Piloting | 40 | January 31st 07 11:11 PM |
Cloud Flying | Shawn Knickerbocker | Soaring | 0 | August 26th 06 03:27 PM |
Most reliable homebuilt helicopter? | tom pettit | Home Built | 35 | September 29th 05 02:24 PM |
Mini-500 Accident Analysis | Dennis Fetters | Rotorcraft | 16 | September 3rd 05 11:35 AM |
the thrill of flying interview is here! | Dudley Henriques | Piloting | 0 | October 21st 03 07:41 PM |