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Cloud Flying - Experimental



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 10th 07, 03:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill Daniels
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 687
Default Cloud Flying - Experimental


"Stefan" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels schrieb:

Getting an instrument rating is probably the hardest rating to get.


It's hard because of the navigation and approach procedures. None of them
is needed for simple cloud flying. Just flying by reference to gyros is
pretty simple.


True, but in the USA there is no glider instrument rating. You must first
get an airplane instrument rating and all that implies.

Bill Daniels


  #42  
Old February 11th 07, 07:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Cloud Flying - Experimental

girls,
Stop winning,
Get instuctor to teach you cloud flying !
Yo, bunch of pussies !
RW

  #43  
Old February 11th 07, 10:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Cloud Flying - Experimental

Just got back from the soaring convention in Memphis. There were 2 talks
by pilots that have been flying on IFR clearances.

Shawn Knickerbocker talked about how he set up his Nimbus for cloud
flying, and how he goes about getting and flying under a clearance. He
pointed out that most recent gliders come into this country under an
experimental certificate. If you look at the flight manual, you'll
likely find a section specifying the equipment needed for cloud flying.
Typically the only additional equipment needed is a turn-and-bank. In
the U.S.A. you'll also need a transponder. He also stated it makes a lot
of sense to also have an artificial horizon, and a redundant battery
system. Before he started cloud flying, he spent some time with local
controllers to understand their environment and how to work a clearance.
He also pointed out that you want to be careful which clouds you climb
into - some can tear your wings off. On the other hand, a good cloud is
a smooth climb.

The second talk was by Gordon Boettger about his 2061 KM flight in class
A airspace. He restricts his flying to VFR conditions, but has a T&B and
transponder to be legal to fly in IFR airspace. He put a lot of effort
into getting agreements with the centers whose airspace he flies
through. He even mentioned a SouthWest airline conversation with center.
They wanted to climb, but couldn't because of the glider above them.

It is possible, and legal, to set up a glider for IFR flight. You can
get a clearance. This isn't for the casual pilot.

Steve

Derek Copeland wrote:
The biggest danger in cloud flying is not spinning
or mid-air collisions, it's getting into a spiral dive.
Without reference to blind flying instruments, it is
very easy to get into an ever steepening turn which
will eventually cause the glider to overspeed and to
be over stressed by excessive g. As long as the turn
is reasonably accurate, the apparent direction of gravity
will always be straight down the vertical axis of the
glider, so your senses will tell you that you are flying
straight when you are turning quite steeply. If you
do actually straighten up from a turn, you will then
get a strong sensation that you are now turning in
the opposite direction.

Some years ago a member of the Lasham based Imperial
College Gliding Club got a Skylark into a spiral dive
while cloud climbing. He ended up pulling so much g
that he blacked out and then collapsed through the
seat pan, which is stressed to 9g for a 110 kg person,
and then out through the bottom of the glider. He came
round to find himself falling through the cloud without
a glider, pulled the ripcord on his parachute and survived
relatively unharmed. When the wreckage of the glider
was found, the canopy was still fastened and the seat
belts were still done up, so he definitely hadn't bailed
out!

In the UK the only operational requirements for cloud
flying are that all occupants of the glider must wear
a serviceable parachute and be trained in its use (which
saved the life of the above pilot). However, in my
opinion, you would be mad to enter cloud without at
least a turn and slip indicator, plus serviceable basic
instruments, and some training in blind flying techniques.

If you get into a spin, the best thing to do is to
hold the glider in the spin by applying full up elevator
and into spin rudder until you drop out of the bottom
of the cloud and then to recover. It is possible to
recover from spins by reference to the instruments
alone, and I have done this under the hood with a safety
pilot, but it is not easy and the worst bit is getting
the glider back under control once the spin has stopped.

Derek Copeland


At 22:06 07 February 2007, Jb92563 wrote:
Experimental COA certificate with the Operating limits
letter is what
you are allowed to do with your experimental glider.

Your flight test program that you submitted, documented
and performed
successfully forms the flight capabilities of your
COA.

In other words...if your flight test program to get
the COA done did
not include spins etc...and hence not in your operating
limits letter
then you are not legal to perform those manuevers.

Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial
horizon
will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the
turbulence, G'
loads etc will soon cause you
to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results
in overspeeding
and overstressing the structure before you exit the
cloud.

If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately
you can slowly
put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right
corner with
full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin
which by its
very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress
the aircraft,
although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once
clear of
cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having
overstressed
anything and live to learn never to do that sort of
thing again
without the proper instruments.

You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper
range if you
are unable to recover from the spin.
All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable
of a
predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the
proper C of G
range.

If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy
and will kill you
the first time you mess up!!!

Ray





  #44  
Old February 12th 07, 03:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 351
Default Cloud Flying - Experimental

On Feb 11, 4:55 pm, Steve wrote:
Just got back from the soaring convention in Memphis. There were 2 talks
by pilots that have been flying on IFR clearances.

Shawn Knickerbocker talked about how he set up his Nimbus for cloud
flying, and how he goes about getting and flying under a clearance. He
pointed out that most recent gliders come into this country under an
experimental certificate. If you look at the flight manual, you'll
likely find a section specifying the equipment needed for cloud flying.
Typically the only additional equipment needed is a turn-and-bank. In
the U.S.A. you'll also need a transponder. He also stated it makes a lot
of sense to also have an artificial horizon, and a redundant battery
system. Before he started cloud flying, he spent some time with local
controllers to understand their environment and how to work a clearance.
He also pointed out that you want to be careful which clouds you climb
into - some can tear your wings off. On the other hand, a good cloud is
a smooth climb.

The second talk was by Gordon Boettger about his 2061 KM flight in class
A airspace. He restricts his flying to VFR conditions, but has a T&B and
transponder to be legal to fly in IFR airspace. He put a lot of effort
into getting agreements with the centers whose airspace he flies
through. He even mentioned a SouthWest airline conversation with center.
They wanted to climb, but couldn't because of the glider above them.

It is possible, and legal, to set up a glider for IFR flight. You can
get a clearance. This isn't for the casual pilot.

Steve

Derek Copeland wrote:
The biggest danger in cloud flying is not spinning
or mid-air collisions, it's getting into a spiral dive.
Without reference to blind flying instruments, it is
very easy to get into an ever steepening turn which
will eventually cause the glider to overspeed and to
be over stressed by excessive g. As long as the turn
is reasonably accurate, the apparent direction of gravity
will always be straight down the vertical axis of the
glider, so your senses will tell you that you are flying
straight when you are turning quite steeply. If you
do actually straighten up from a turn, you will then
get a strong sensation that you are now turning in
the opposite direction.


Some years ago a member of the Lasham based Imperial
College Gliding Club got a Skylark into a spiral dive
while cloud climbing. He ended up pulling so much g
that he blacked out and then collapsed through the
seat pan, which is stressed to 9g for a 110 kg person,
and then out through the bottom of the glider. He came
round to find himself falling through the cloud without
a glider, pulled the ripcord on his parachute and survived
relatively unharmed. When the wreckage of the glider
was found, the canopy was still fastened and the seat
belts were still done up, so he definitely hadn't bailed
out!


In the UK the only operational requirements for cloud
flying are that all occupants of the glider must wear
a serviceable parachute and be trained in its use (which
saved the life of the above pilot). However, in my
opinion, you would be mad to enter cloud without at
least a turn and slip indicator, plus serviceable basic
instruments, and some training in blind flying techniques.


If you get into a spin, the best thing to do is to
hold the glider in the spin by applying full up elevator
and into spin rudder until you drop out of the bottom
of the cloud and then to recover. It is possible to
recover from spins by reference to the instruments
alone, and I have done this under the hood with a safety
pilot, but it is not easy and the worst bit is getting
the glider back under control once the spin has stopped.


Derek Copeland


At 22:06 07 February 2007, Jb92563 wrote:
Experimental COA certificate with the Operating limits
letter is what
you are allowed to do with your experimental glider.


Your flight test program that you submitted, documented
and performed
successfully forms the flight capabilities of your
COA.


In other words...if your flight test program to get
the COA done did
not include spins etc...and hence not in your operating
limits letter
then you are not legal to perform those manuevers.


Flying straight and level in a cloud without an artificial
horizon
will only last for about 30 seconds at most since the
turbulence, G'
loads etc will soon cause you
to make incorrect control inputs and ussually results
in overspeeding
and overstressing the structure before you exit the
cloud.


If you have the sense to do it quickly and deliberately
you can slowly
put the stick back and then leave it in the lower right
corner with
full right rudder and get yourself into a stable spin
which by its
very nature will not descend to quickly nor overstress
the aircraft,
although you might get queezy after 10+ turns .......once
clear of
cloud you can do a normal spin recovery without having
overstressed
anything and live to learn never to do that sort of
thing again
without the proper instruments.


You will also find out if your C of G was in the proper
range if you
are unable to recover from the spin.
All airworthy soundly designed gliders should be capable
of a
predictable, repeatable spin recovery when in the
proper C of G
range.


If not then dont fly it, because its not airworthy
and will kill you
the first time you mess up!!!


Ray


Steve, I was there too. Also had several meals with Shawn.
Transponder actually isnt required, even though many think it is, for
IFR flying. He did say that it is a good idea and makes getting
clearances about 90% easier. I am in a different boat than he is
though as I have an amatuer built glider without a operating handbook
so I must prove that my glider meets a suitable standard.

  #45  
Old February 12th 07, 02:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Peter Harvey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Cloud Flying - Experimental

Hi folks
Thought I'd add my 2cts and hope it's useful.
I've cloud flown a reasonable amount, mostly competitions,
all in the UK. Gliders cloud-flown include Vega, Bocian,
Duo, LS8, ASW27, ASW22, ASH25 and Nimbus4.

Regardless of the legal requirements, I’ve adopted
the following practical approach and it’s stood me
in good stead (I’m not an instructor, so you’ll have
to make your own minds up).

1) Minimum equipment (for me) is artificial horizon
and GPS. Everything else is merely desireable and I’ll
explain why.
Clouds are wet and cold. Eventually ice forms and your
ASI WILL be rendered useless (I have 2 pitots on the
Nimbus4, but both block within a few minutes of each
other). With no ASI (and no AH) then your T&S should
immediately be used to level up and LEAVE! IMHO it’s
a backup instrument in a glider.

2)Know where you are and heading. I've found that the
GPS provides very accurate direction whilst circling
(thermalling), albeit some 35 - 40 degrees behind for
direction. By commencing a levelling turn 40degrees
before desired heading, the final heading is achieved.
One can thereby change from thermalling to straight
flight pretty accurately. The compass is very difficult
to fly, with its progressing and recessing, but better
pilots than I use them regularly.

It often (usually) gets bumpy during the climb and
sometimes darn right turbulent. The cloud climb characteristics
seem to work through layers: The lift accelerates just
below cloudbase (latent heat of condensation) and the
'feel' often changes to slightly more active air (it
is)! This continues into the cloud (did I mention that
all radio calls, trimming, etc are done in the clear
below, leaving plenty of time to CONCENTRATE?).
The turn rate and trimming are already done and the
glider should pretty well fly itself hands off with
SMALL movements to counter any developing TRENDS.

Established in the circling climb, I scan the ASI,
cotton yaw string, horizon, GPS and VSI (keep reading
before you get overly excited - this is the PRACTICAL
approach). I look for the trend as much as the specific
value. If the AH shows the turn increasing, I take
off a little bank and vice versa. Sounds easy, but
of course as bank increases, the speed increases (back
to school) and when I unbank I need to push a little
to maintain speed. You'd be amazed how this basic becomes
difficult with a visual term of reference. Thermalling
the Nimbus in clear air, I aim for 57 knots for a reasonable
4knot climb. IN the cloud in the same thermal I expect
the climb rate to increase to closer to 6knots, but
I’ll let the speed vary from 50 to 65knots without
pulling or pushing too hard. Any more than that and
the flaps will have to go away. Small movements, anticipation,
look at the trend. OK, it’s going well, I’m 2000’ into
the cloud and lift improves to 8knots with a little
re-centering. Now the canopy is getting very wet and
that yaw string is glued and useless. However, it was
helpful to establish what ‘normal’ felt like and I
can now ignore it and scan the remaining instruments
(ASI, horizon, GPS and VSI) . It’s getting darker and
a little rougher. As the lift increased I had to allow
the glider to take a slightly higher attitude on the
AH to avoid excessive speed. Can someone explain that?
That means as the glider bounces out of the strongest
bit of lift I need to push quite positively and quickly
to avoid flying too slow. I use my bum to tell me when
the lift reduces or increases! VSI is too slow to respond.
The wings are very difficult to see now (I did an occasional
glance earlier when it was smooth) as ice starts to
cover the canopy inside and out. The ASI has packed
in, but that’s OK because I know what ‘normal’ looks
like on the AH. Instrument scan now AH, GPS, VSI. Lift
is now 9knots and still increasing. It’s getting colder,
I'm cold and forcing myself to relax on the stick,
but there’s a lighter patch on each revolution of the
turn that tells me I’m near the edge of the cloud.
Often the case higher up I’ve found, even if entering
the middle. The noise has increased. I particularly
notice it as I swallow and clear my ears in the 10knot
lift. It’s the ice forming on the wings. The controls
are sluggish and with my small anticipatory movements
the ice is slowly freezing the available movement in
the controls. I deliberately ‘stir’ the stick in a
quick wide circle to break free the controls. Time
to seriously consider leaving. I’ve been scanning the
GPS, so have a mental picture of which way ‘out’ or
the desired heading is. 40 degrees before heading I
bank over to level up, pushing quite positively. The
GPS is within 10 degrees (that will do) the AH is pretty
much there on the attitude and pretty level (my scan
is now AH and GPS only). It seems a bit slapdash maybe,
but keeping it within limits is the key. With 10knots
lift and now some 10,000’ extra height, flying precisely
is less an issue, flying safely is everything. More
turbulence as I fly along, but I resist the temptation
to push, pull or bank as my senses cry out. I only
follow the instruments and nothing else. Suddenly it’s
light, brilliant sun and I’m free. Check the horizon
(real) against the AH, but prepare to re-enter – keep
scanning in case it’s just a small gap. I keep a little
extra speed to compensate for the icy wings – just
a guess since the ASI is still frozen. I re-trim for
level flight. Finally clear, the view is stunning.
Another 5,000’ of cloud above, the ground a long way
down and a long glide beckoning into the warm air,
slower because of the ice, with occasional ‘stirs’
to keep the controls free.

I find that it’s a very useful skill that needs practice
and I do get rusty.
Most important of all, I practiced a ‘get out’. In
free air I experimented with various attitudes and
flap settings. For my Nimbus4 with the airbrakes extended,
flaps in neutral and the trimmer next to that funny
mark, controls held firm, the glider will eventually
recover from pretty much any attitude. I practiced
that in clear air, so I know it will work if I loose
it in the cloud. I just have to get the brakes out
before their limiting speed.

If the AH or electric fail (it’s happened to me) then
the AH flag will pop out and you’ve got a minute or
two to straighten and escape. This is when the T&S
comes into its own as a backup – to escape. The batteries
will get cold and don’t perform as well. Can;t have
too much power. Personally I don’t trust the new electronic
‘horizons’. I prefer a gyro that continues spinning
after the power fails.

With practice, one can centre and re-centre the climb
as the core moves. It needs a mental picture of the
turn and that’s where the GPS direction helps. It can
be a very rewarding experience, but best learnt in
a 2-seater with a grown-up! It’s a little scary at
first, but incredibly rewarding. Other factors include
temperature (yes I do use the guage), who's below,
who's nearby and whether the increased drag with wet
/ icy wings makes the whole exercise beneficial.

I wouldn’t try it in a thunderstorm!
Hope this helps – I await the flamers …
Pete Harvey




 




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