GPS-NAV security sealing

Calibration is also required to assure the flight didn't get into Class A
airspace without clearance. Maybe not a problem a lot of places but it can
be a real issue in the west.

John Scott

What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik



At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Marc,

Good point. I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight

recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

On Aug 27, 4:39*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

*I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? *More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:



Hi Marc,

Good point. *I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" *wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. *Otherwise, there's not
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc



Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc. don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

On Aug 27, 5:24*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

*I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? *More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. *I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" *wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. *Otherwise, there's not
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc. don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:



What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

On Aug 27, 6:09*pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm *wrote:
On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer *wrote:

What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

=A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
th=
e
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
throu=
gh
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
kno=
w
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
t=
o
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
N=
or
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik

At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Marc,

Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
.. .
Sam Discusflyer wrote:
So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
connect=
ed
to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
fli=
ght
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
flight
recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior

of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
no=
t
much

point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

We are all using technology to make things easier. You seem to be
arguing against that. If you enjoy record flying that is great. But to
support that you need a technology based logging system that has
traceable compliance. Letting people mess with the logger is therefore
a non-starter. I don't know what I could have possibly said that
implied that resealing loggers is mostly ceremony, serious hacking
like I mentioned would be detectable (altitude out of calibration,
modifications that would be visible etc. While you cannot absolutely
control what any service center will do I have pretty high
expectations of those vendors, especially of folks like Gary at MK.

Sam Discusflyer wrote:
I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier.

I've done record flights with a barograph, and I've done them with a
secure logger, and my experience is the secure logger DOES make record
and badge flights much easier to fly and to document. It's also easier
for the official observer and the records keeper.

I've never had to reseal a logger (not even my old CAI model 20). The
barographs I used had to be recalibrated yearly, so I'm quite happy my
secure logger can go two years between calibrations. I've saved enough
to reseal several loggers just because of that, compared to the old
barographs.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:19:18 +0100, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

Not quite right Martin.

Calibration is required for observance of the 1% rule for distance
flights.

Point noted: I'd assumed that the relative height difference would do and
that sensor drift would not affect height differentials.

FWIW my logger was out of calibration when I made my Gold distance claim
and that wasn't questioned. OTOH I started at 3500 and ended at 1600 on a
day when the GPS and pressure altitude difference was under 100 ft, so
there was no need for careful measurement to verify that I'd met the
height difference rules.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |