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Cat peeking out of the bag?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 21st 04, 02:43 PM
José Herculano
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Default Cat peeking out of the bag?

I've just finished reading the following book about the F-14 in Iranian
hands:

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It is a well written account which is claimed to be based upon extensive
research and talks with Iranian, and some Iraqi, aircrew.

With the caveat of the usual inflation of kills when talking with "those who
where there", particularly in what concerns BVR kills, the book is
consistent with the many leaked details that have been emerging for several
years.

For those less attentive to the complexities of the Middle East politics and
operations, it can be a bit of an eye opener, but there are plenty of people
around, from the "air-warrior" community, that have claimed in print and on
the net that they had interesting times they cannot speak openly about.

To cut the introduction short, and getting to the theme I'd like to see
discussed...

It seems there is credible evidence for around 130 air-to-air F-14 kills,
with some 40 of those been AIM-54 kills. Actual recorded claims are higher
than that, but let's stay cautious.

The Iraqis have sure lost quite a lot of aircraft during the long Iraq-Iran
war, with quite a few MiG-21/23/25, Mirage F1, Su-22 and other assorted
types being credited to the Tomcats by both sides. It has been often relayed
as a fact that, during the 1st Gulf War, the Iraqis were very unwilling to
go anywhere near the USN F-14s and their tell-tale AWG-9 signature, while
not being so shy towards the Eagles. Reports have come out - both recent and
old - of Iraqi pilots saying that the F-14s were the Iranian aircraft they
most feared...

So what do you think? Are the politicos (in and out of uniform) giving the
Buffalo the thumbs down for reasons other than performance? Is the F-14 a
more successful fighter than we have been lead to believe? Or not?

_____________
José Herculano


  #2  
Old October 21st 04, 05:08 PM
Paul Michael Brown
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It seems there is credible evidence for around 130 air-to-air F-14 kills,
with some 40 of those been AIM-54 kills. Actual recorded claims are higher
than that, but let's stay cautious.


Isn't there also evidence to suggest that the Iranians used the Tomcat as
an airborne warning and control aircraft?

The Iraqis have sure lost quite a lot of aircraft during the long Iraq-Iran
war, with quite a few MiG-21/23/25, Mirage F1, Su-22 and other assorted
types being credited to the Tomcats by both sides. It has been often relayed
as a fact that, during the 1st Gulf War, the Iraqis were very unwilling to
go anywhere near the USN F-14s and their tell-tale AWG-9 signature, while
not being so shy towards the Eagles.


Re the Iraqis purported preference to engage "the Eagles," I assume this
refers to F-15s. I was not aware the Iranians purchased any F-15s. Of
course I could be wrong. Can anybody weigh in on this point?
  #3  
Old October 21st 04, 05:25 PM
rob
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"Paul Michael Brown" wrote in message
news
It seems there is credible evidence for around 130 air-to-air F-14 kills,
with some 40 of those been AIM-54 kills. Actual recorded claims are
higher
than that, but let's stay cautious.


Isn't there also evidence to suggest that the Iranians used the Tomcat as
an airborne warning and control aircraft?

The Iraqis have sure lost quite a lot of aircraft during the long
Iraq-Iran
war, with quite a few MiG-21/23/25, Mirage F1, Su-22 and other assorted
types being credited to the Tomcats by both sides. It has been often
relayed
as a fact that, during the 1st Gulf War, the Iraqis were very unwilling
to
go anywhere near the USN F-14s and their tell-tale AWG-9 signature, while
not being so shy towards the Eagles.


Re the Iraqis purported preference to engage "the Eagles," I assume this
refers to F-15s. I was not aware the Iranians purchased any F-15s. Of
course I could be wrong. Can anybody weigh in on this point?


he said 'during the 1st Gulf War' not the Iran-Iraq war.

And while I will admit never taking a good look at the subject, everything I
have read re the Iranian F-14s says that they had a lot of trouble keeping
the aircraft and missles maintained once the US techs left. Because of this
the few flyable F-14s left at wars end were pretty much AWAC only. 130 A2A
kills sounds like an awful lot to me.


  #4  
Old October 21st 04, 11:28 PM
Elmshoot
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It seems there is credible evidence for around 130 air-to-air F-14 kills,
with some 40 of those been AIM-54 kills. Actual recorded claims are higher
than that, but let's stay cautious.


I would not even buy 1/3 that total! I don't think the Iraquies had that many
planes to shoot down.

Sparky
  #5  
Old October 22nd 04, 01:43 AM
Thomas Schoene
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José Herculano wrote:
I've just finished reading the following book about the F-14 in
Iranian hands:

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...1.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It is a well written account which is claimed to be based upon
extensive research and talks with Iranian, and some Iraqi, aircrew.

[snip]

Tom Cooper has been a pretty regular poster here; he may well be along to
defend his statistics.

So what do you think? Are the politicos (in and out of uniform)
giving the Buffalo the thumbs down for reasons other than
performance?


AFAIK, no one within the Navy has ever claimed that the F-14 is being
retired due to inferior performance. The decision has always been framed as
being driven by cost, reliability, and maintainability issues.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872




  #6  
Old October 22nd 04, 03:11 AM
Joe Delphi
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AFAIK, no one within the Navy has ever claimed that the F-14 is being
retired due to inferior performance. The decision has always been framed

as
being driven by cost, reliability, and maintainability issues.

Well, that and the "F/A-18 mafia"....


  #7  
Old October 22nd 04, 08:24 AM
Tamas Feher
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It seems there is credible evidence for around 130 air-to-air
F-14 kills, with some 40 of those been AIM-54 kills.


Except for the fact that CIA ordered US ground crew in Iran to sabotage
Phoenix related gear in Tomcats' radars as soon as the shah fell from
power.

Otherwise the AIM54 was never meant to be used against small and agile
targets like fighter bombers, which Iraq had. In contrast a cruise
missile or a bomb-laden Tu-95 cannot do the immelman, so they are easy
to hit with a big and necessarily sluggish missile from 70 nm.

Otherwise all variable wing planes suck a great deal: heavy,
trouble-prone, cost a lot to maintain, wings mecha takes up precious
place in the fuselage, won't survive battle damage. No wonder the USN is
retiring all Tomcats. The MiG-23 has long hit the scapyard most places.
Remaining F-111 has been deported to a place where planes normally fly
upside-down. The Tornado flies only because anything else is better than
an F-104.


  #8  
Old October 22nd 04, 04:23 PM
José Herculano
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Except for the fact that CIA ordered US ground crew in Iran to sabotage
Phoenix related gear in Tomcats' radars as soon as the shah fell from
power.


Iranian sources claim that only 12 were sabotaged, and those were later
fixed with parts out of that Iran-Contra deal.

Otherwise the AIM54 was never meant to be used against small and agile
targets like fighter bombers, which Iraq had. In contrast a cruise missile
or a bomb-laden Tu-95 cannot do the immelman, so they are easy to hit with
a big and necessarily sluggish missile from 70 nm.


Well, most of the kills were against MiGs... true it seems they were not
maneuvering much, but most BVR kills are like that.

Otherwise all variable wing planes suck a great deal: heavy,
trouble-prone, cost a lot to maintain, wings mecha takes up precious place
in the fuselage, won't survive battle damage. No wonder the USN is


Tell you what... the swing wing spar IS the thoughest piece of metal on the
Tomcat. You can claim the bird is prone to battle damage everywhere BUT on
the swing-wing mechanism.

_____________
José Herculano


  #9  
Old October 22nd 04, 04:47 PM
Elmshoot
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Except for the fact that CIA ordered US ground crew in Iran to sabotage
Phoenix related gear in Tomcats' radars as soon as the shah fell from
power.


Ya I didn't know quite how to mention that I "might" have met some one who
"might" have been involved in making sure that the Buffalo didn't work before
he left that country. I have heard from fighter guys that in close while the
motor is running that the buff can be a formibidal weapon that can make a
pretty good turn. But then they were probably looking for an excuse to use the
thing. It wasn't designed for the close in fight but only as a back up to
something better.
Sparky
  #10  
Old October 22nd 04, 10:09 PM
José Herculano
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he left that country. I have heard from fighter guys that in close while
the
motor is running that the buff can be a formibidal weapon that can make a
pretty good turn. But then they were probably looking for an excuse to use
the
thing. It wasn't designed for the close in fight but only as a back up to
something better.


And it has one BIG fragmentation warhead. There are some pretty wild claims
on that book about multiple kills with a single missile. Like Iraqis flying
close formation and the missile bagging the leader AND the wingman. Sounds
fishy to me, but...

But even when the motor is spent, that thing is coming balistic at you at
Mach 4 plus... it should be hard to vacate its ballpark. I heard the thing
does 18 G turns while motoring.
_____________
José Herculano


 




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