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Opinions on Cessna 340, 414 and 421



 
 
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  #42  
Old March 31st 04, 11:01 PM
Nathan Young
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On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:54:35 GMT, john szpara
wrote:


Seems to me that in this class of used airplane the primary cost issue isn't
purchase price but rather annual insurance and maintenance costs. Any
pressurized, cabin class twin you buy for $150K will probably require a LOT
of maintenance! How much are you willing to spend annually to keep your
bird flying at peak safety levels? Are you willing to devote maybe a week


I'm figuring $20-30k/year for 100 hours flying. Extra money would be
available for the (inevitable) unexpected. I won't even attempt to buy
unless the revenue stream is in place for it. I would also be using it
partly for my business.


John,

You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And
you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In
the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll
keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground.

Seriously though, $20-30k for 100hrs/year works out to $200-300/hr.
It is impossible to own/operate a 421 for $200/hr. The GTSIO520s burn
25gph (each) in cruise. Given the $3/gallon prices we have in Chicago
- that's $150/hr right there.

A rebuilt GTSIO520 is $45k, assuming it goes 2000 hrs before the
rebuild that's $22.50/hr per engine. So another $45/hr. Plus, if the
engines are mid-time, you need to be able to make up the 'already
spent' hours in the overhaul fund. This also does not include the
costs to install the new engine or remove the old one.

Most of these engines will require 1 (if not 2) top overhauls to make
it to 2000 hrs. That's another 10-20k per engine per TOH.

Hell, even oil changes on these things are serious business.
Basically a case of oil per engine for each change, plus however much
burn they have. Figure $100 per oil change, and $50 for burned oil
between changes.

Tiedown/Hangar costs are variable, but it is my opinion that a
high-performance/complex aircraft should really be in a heated/climate
controlled hangar. The wind/weather are really hard on planes sitting
outside, and when things break on a 421, they are expensive. Even so,
let's assume that a tie-down is available for $600/year or $6/hr.

Insurance will be another heap. My low-time ME quotes for a $140k
Seneca II with $1M smooth ranged from $5.5k to $12k. I'm sure a 421
with 8 seats and a higher hull value will be much worse. Let's say
you can get insurance for $10k/year which would still be $100/hr.

So a rough estimate per hour
Fuel: $150
Oil: $6
Eng Reserve: $45
Tiedown $6
Insurance: $100
------------------------------------
That's close to $300 and it does not include annual inspections or
misc maintenance costs.

-Nathan
  #43  
Old April 1st 04, 12:43 AM
john szpara
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You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And
you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In
the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll
keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground.


Yeah, a while back I was asking about a favorite plane of mine, the
T210, and they were close to having me talked out of buying it, or
anything else. The dream to fly and own is persistant, though.


Seriously though, $20-30k for 100hrs/year works out to $200-300/hr.
It is impossible to own/operate a 421 for $200/hr. The GTSIO520s burn
25gph (each) in cruise. Given the $3/gallon prices we have in Chicago
- that's $150/hr right there.


A 421 is almost certainly more plane than I need. The 340 is probably
closer to the truth, but is more crampt than the 414. If I can find a
414 that I can afford, both on the front and back end, then that might
be the bird. Assuming, of course, that wing spar AD doesn't kill all
300/400 Cessnas.

So a rough estimate per hour
Fuel: $150
Oil: $6
Eng Reserve: $45
Tiedown $6
Insurance: $100
------------------------------------
That's close to $300 and it does not include annual inspections or
misc maintenance costs.


Thanks for the writeup. This kind of stuff is invaluable in helping
the decision process.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT
  #44  
Old April 1st 04, 02:18 AM
jsmith
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Piper Aztec. Best single engine piston performer. Nice fat wing, good
low speed handling.
Piper Cheyenne is the best small turbine. Check the accident statistics.
  #45  
Old April 1st 04, 02:25 AM
jsmith
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john szpara wrote:
Why do you want a potty? They stink and YOU have to empty them. I have had
potty in my airplane for 6 yrs and it has never been used.


You've never been on a long trip with my wife. When we're driving, we
have to stop every hour for the restroom. That's tough to do on a long
flight, especially if you're at the flight levels and she tells you
she "has to go". Not such a big deal for me, if I have a relief tube,
but for her its a different story.


My family has made two 800 nm trips in the last two years.
The first was in a Cherokee Six. The legs were three to three-and-a-half hours.
This was max bladder range for the kids.
The second trip was in a C182. Prior to departure, my wife decreed that
legs were to be two-hours (+/-).
It added two fuel stops and two hours to the flight, but everyone was happy.
  #46  
Old April 1st 04, 05:35 AM
Mike Rapoport
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"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...

You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And
you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In
the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll
keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground.


Yeah, a while back I was asking about a favorite plane of mine, the
T210, and they were close to having me talked out of buying it, or
anything else. The dream to fly and own is persistant, though.



Seriously, don't let anybody talk you out of doing what you want to do
because you will regret it. I think most of the posters here are just
trying to make sure that you think of all the angles.

I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my current airplane in the next
few years for many of the reasons that have been brought up. Going to
Simcom is a minimium of four days and $15,000. Going in for maitenance is
two days just to drop off the airplane and pick it up again. There is no
way that I save SIX DAYS a year by owning an airplane. I don't fly around
anymore just to look out the window. My plan is to build a Murphy Moose (6
place bushplane) that can be maintained by myself and where I can get
training locally. I would also save well over $100k/yr in expenses. I can
find the time and I can afford the price but I am reaching the point where I
ask myself if I really want to. Once you cross a certain threshold of
airplane performance, the commitment, both in term of time and money starts
growing geometrically.

Mike
MU-2


  #47  
Old April 1st 04, 07:56 AM
Bela P. Havasreti
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On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:35:56 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

Interesting. The *only* reason I fly is to enjoy the view out the
window (to the tune of 200+ hours per year), and to transport myself
to (relatively local) places I've never been before, or to go places
you can only get to with an airplane (most of which, you can only get
to with a "bush" airplane).

I own a simple/old tail-dragger now, but in earlier days, I used to
long for high/fast stuff (the more complex, the better, although
I've never had the pleasure of flying equipment like you're
airplane Mike).

These days, something like a Champ on a summer day at 800' AGL
putting along at 85-90mph is my idea of fun. If I need to get across
the country in a hurry, I hop onto a tube (airliner).

The Murphy Moose is a neat rig. If I were to build one, I'd have to
hang/use the M-14PF (400hp) engine.

Bela P. Havasreti


"john szpara" wrote in message
ws.com...

You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And
you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In
the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll
keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground.


Yeah, a while back I was asking about a favorite plane of mine, the
T210, and they were close to having me talked out of buying it, or
anything else. The dream to fly and own is persistant, though.



Seriously, don't let anybody talk you out of doing what you want to do
because you will regret it. I think most of the posters here are just
trying to make sure that you think of all the angles.

I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my current airplane in the next
few years for many of the reasons that have been brought up. Going to
Simcom is a minimium of four days and $15,000. Going in for maitenance is
two days just to drop off the airplane and pick it up again. There is no
way that I save SIX DAYS a year by owning an airplane. I don't fly around
anymore just to look out the window. My plan is to build a Murphy Moose (6
place bushplane) that can be maintained by myself and where I can get
training locally. I would also save well over $100k/yr in expenses. I can
find the time and I can afford the price but I am reaching the point where I
ask myself if I really want to. Once you cross a certain threshold of
airplane performance, the commitment, both in term of time and money starts
growing geometrically.

Mike
MU-2


  #48  
Old April 1st 04, 10:12 AM
Ben Jackson
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In article .net,
Mike Rapoport wrote:
I don't fly around anymore just to look out the window. [...]
I would also save well over $100k/yr in expenses.


Sounds like you need a helicopter!

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/
  #49  
Old April 1st 04, 01:21 PM
Dennis O'Connor
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mmmm probably.... But, I just wrote a check yesterday for 70K for new
software and hardware for the office... There went the down payment on the
C-90 so I can forget that - and I won't even get any fun for the 70K...
Life's a bummer sometimes...
denny
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
If his exposure is covered somehow then why wouldn't he? :-)

Mike
MU-2



  #50  
Old April 1st 04, 06:35 PM
john szpara
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I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my current airplane in the next
few years for many of the reasons that have been brought up. Going to
Simcom is a minimium of four days and $15,000. Going in for maitenance is
two days just to drop off the airplane and pick it up again. There is no
way that I save SIX DAYS a year by owning an airplane. I don't fly around


I read an article that you can do Flightsafety sim training for
something like $4500 (or so) a year, and go as many times as you
want/need.

That's a twin simulator, and the writer of the article raved about the
quality of the sim and the training.

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT
 




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