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Too many accidents



 
 
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  #41  
Old September 7th 18, 01:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 35
Default Too many accidents

Le vendredi 7 septembre 2018 02:55:44 UTC+2, Roy B. a écritÂ*:

Think of Helmut Reichman, Klaus Holighaus , Bill Ivans and many other masters of our sport that are gone. Did they have a "demonstrable lack of knowledge"?


Interstingly, three completely different accidents, by the way:
Reichmann: collision with another glider
Holighaus: collision with a mountain side
Ivans: loss of control at high altitude and break-up in mid-air

  #42  
Old September 7th 18, 01:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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Posts: 177
Default Too many accidents

On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 9/6/2018 7:11 AM:
This is a recurring topic since the beginning of aviation. The irony is there is a well known and recognized, fundamental reason for glider (all aviation) accidents.

And that is, a demonstrable lack of knowledge.

It is easy to confirm. Present a group of pilots with a written test of basic, essential knowledge needed to fly safely.

I would include my favorite question:

Why does an aircraft have a rudder?

Some years ago, when I conducted glider CFI revalidation clinics, I presented this question to a group of about 40 glider CFIs. Not a single person got this question correct, and I would bet it is no different today.

It is common for people to avoid obtaining the fundamental knowledge necessary for safe flight.

It's not been obvious to me that the pilot with the best aerodynamic understanding
was the best pilot. I had students with poor math and physics abilities and could
offer only a cobbled explanation of lift, adverse yaw, and angle of attack, but
they knew what view out the canopy should look like, and how to move the controls
to keep the view looking correct. That knowledge enabled them to make the plane go
where they wanted it do. They also got worried about their situation while there
was still time to correct the situation - a major factor in staying alive.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf


I suspect that flying is a lot like riding a bike. Most bike riders have no idea of the physics of how a bike stays upright while riding.

Some pilots fly by the numbers. Others seem to have an instinctive connection to the aircraft, where they can feel what it is doing and immediately respond without necessarily understanding what they are doing. I'm not sure you can teach that.

If you fly by the numbers, get in trouble at low altitude and have to think about how to recover, you are probably doomed.
  #43  
Old September 7th 18, 04:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WB
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Posts: 236
Default Too many accidents

On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 4:33:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Several posters have raised the issue of declining reflexes with advancing age. Especially so in flying and particularly in gliding.


Certainly declining reflexes contribute to accidents. No question about it. However, general aviation does not often require lightning quick reflexes. I think there's a story about some famous pilot who was asked what he would do in an emergency and his answer was something like "First, I'd wind my watch..." meaning he would take a few seconds to think before acting. I suspect the aging related decline that is more relevant to accidents is a decline in our situational awareness. One specific decline is in our ability to perceive how a situation is changing. How long does it take us to recognize that our airspeed is decaying? How quickly do we perceive changes in yaw rate or pitch rate? We may do pretty well and compensate by being mindful of our growing deficits as we age, but as we approach some threshold of function, we might begin to have episodes where we momentarily jump well beyond a threshold of critically reduced function due to fatigue, dehydration, low blood sugar, whatever. I've seen old guys who would fly 9 of 10 flights flawlessly, then inexplicably drive a ship onto the runway or into a field at high speed and end up in a pile of busted fiberglass.

Maybe we need the advice of some folks who specialize in studying and treating cognitive decline in aging.

  #44  
Old September 7th 18, 04:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default Too many accidents

On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 10:11:09 AM UTC-4, wrote:
The irony is there is a well known and recognized, fundamental reason for glider (all aviation) accidents.

And that is, a demonstrable lack of knowledge.


Bring forth the data Tom. Show us how this is a proximate factor in some significant fraction of gliding accidents. I'm skeptical. Clearly I'm not alone.

My experience informs me that more significant factors are complacency, (failure to maintain) situational awareness & risk taking.

best,
Evan Ludeman
  #45  
Old September 7th 18, 04:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WB
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Posts: 236
Default Too many accidents

On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 9/6/2018 7:11 AM:
This is a recurring topic since the beginning of aviation. The irony is there is a well known and recognized, fundamental reason for glider (all aviation) accidents.

And that is, a demonstrable lack of knowledge.

It is easy to confirm. Present a group of pilots with a written test of basic, essential knowledge needed to fly safely.

I would include my favorite question:

Why does an aircraft have a rudder?

Some years ago, when I conducted glider CFI revalidation clinics, I presented this question to a group of about 40 glider CFIs. Not a single person got this question correct, and I would bet it is no different today.

It is common for people to avoid obtaining the fundamental knowledge necessary for safe flight.

It's not been obvious to me that the pilot with the best aerodynamic understanding
was the best pilot. I had students with poor math and physics abilities and could
offer only a cobbled explanation of lift, adverse yaw, and angle of attack, but
they knew what view out the canopy should look like, and how to move the controls
to keep the view looking correct. That knowledge enabled them to make the plane go
where they wanted it do. They also got worried about their situation while there
was still time to correct the situation - a major factor in staying alive.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf


I suspect that flying is a lot like riding a bike. Most bike riders have no idea of the physics of how a bike stays upright while riding.

Some pilots fly by the numbers. Others seem to have an instinctive connection to the aircraft, where they can feel what it is doing and immediately respond without necessarily understanding what they are doing. I'm not sure you can teach that.

If you fly by the numbers, get in trouble at low altitude and have to think about how to recover, you are probably doomed.


I've successfully avoided helicopters my whole life. Flying a helicopter has got to be like the bike. How could anyone consciously process everything going on in a helicopter and fly by rote? In fact, I think helicopter instructors just keep one alive long enough for one to develop the "muscle memory".
  #46  
Old September 7th 18, 05:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy B.
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Posts: 304
Default Too many accidents

"First, I'd wind my watch..." meaning he would take a few seconds to think before acting.

The problem, WB, is that we are old enough to remember watches that wind.
Most of our students have never seen one.

I was doing a ground school once and mentioned a "slide rule" and one of the kids piped up "What's a slide rule?" And before I could answer another kid said, "It was this old calculating thing - kinda like an abacus". We really are old.
Roy
  #47  
Old September 7th 18, 06:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Too many accidents

On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 10:51:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Hi Everyone,

This is my first time posting here. I'm a student up at Williams who has recently started to solo. I have a total of 12 hours in gliders (2hr solo). So, needless to say, I'm rather inexperienced.

I had the privilege of meeting one of the pilots of XC this summer up in Truckee. His passion for soaring and his willingness to answer even my most basic questions was a kind welcome to the community. My sincere condolences to the soaring community, friends, and family.

This is the first time I've personally known a pilot we have tragically lost in a flight-related accident. I once was a serious cyclist, and tragic events have hit close to home, but it doesn't help any.

As a student, I don't know what the learning is here. I may be getting too analytical too soon, but I feel that the best thing we can do to remember lost pilots is to learn from these tragic events as much as possible.

Before I started my training, I read through every NTSB report related to fatal glider accidents from 1996 to 2016. Please take my analysis with a big grain of salt. I'm not an NTSB examiner, an experienced pilot, and categorizing accidents is difficult.

https://addisonhuddy.com/post/flying/handling-risk/

My biggest takeaways are nothing new: have personal limits, don't show off, use checklists, consistent emergency scenario training, know and maintain the glider, no low saves, and always be learning.

The accidents that shake me the most are the ones that we know little about, which is the majority. Take XC, for example, experienced pilots in a modern glider, at 14k waiting to begin a task, and then all of a sudden descend 5000ft and overstress the plane. The NTSB will do the best they can, but as a student who is trying to learn, what am I to take away from this?


Addison, I am impressed with your analytical skills and motivation for knowledge. Thank you for your work. You might want to speak with your CFIG about limiting banks to 30 degrees in pattern for gliders, and conduct some more training and reading (Tom Knauff's books are great). The 30 degrees applies to powered aircraft, not gliders. Also, while you cite Bruno's video as an example of not stretching glide, after the ridge turn away, his flight is NOT, I repeat NOT, an example of good decision making in not stretching a glide. Bruno is a highly experienced pilot and the scrapping he can get away with verses what someone else could is the matter of life and death or damage. No disrespect meant to Bruno, this post is for the less experienced.
  #48  
Old September 7th 18, 08:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Too many accidents

Like me and others teaching basic mechanics.....
How do I tighten this?
Turn clockwise 95% of the time
What is clockwise on a digital watch?!?!

Times change.

Before Knauff was teaching TLAR....I was taught sorta, does it look right, does it sound right, does if feel right? If no to anything, fix it NOW!
Same idea, just not promoted to the masses in a book. No stealing thunder from Tom, but good basic stuff. I have done flights of many hours with instrument issues, always went back to look/feel/sound, fix as needed. Not every pilot is wired that way though.
  #49  
Old September 7th 18, 11:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Too many accidents

On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 8:58:29 AM UTC-7, WB wrote:
On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 9/6/2018 7:11 AM:
This is a recurring topic since the beginning of aviation. The irony is there is a well known and recognized, fundamental reason for glider (all aviation) accidents.

And that is, a demonstrable lack of knowledge.

It is easy to confirm. Present a group of pilots with a written test of basic, essential knowledge needed to fly safely.

I would include my favorite question:

Why does an aircraft have a rudder?

Some years ago, when I conducted glider CFI revalidation clinics, I presented this question to a group of about 40 glider CFIs. Not a single person got this question correct, and I would bet it is no different today.

It is common for people to avoid obtaining the fundamental knowledge necessary for safe flight.

It's not been obvious to me that the pilot with the best aerodynamic understanding
was the best pilot. I had students with poor math and physics abilities and could
offer only a cobbled explanation of lift, adverse yaw, and angle of attack, but
they knew what view out the canopy should look like, and how to move the controls
to keep the view looking correct. That knowledge enabled them to make the plane go
where they wanted it do. They also got worried about their situation while there
was still time to correct the situation - a major factor in staying alive.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf


I suspect that flying is a lot like riding a bike. Most bike riders have no idea of the physics of how a bike stays upright while riding.

Some pilots fly by the numbers. Others seem to have an instinctive connection to the aircraft, where they can feel what it is doing and immediately respond without necessarily understanding what they are doing. I'm not sure you can teach that.

If you fly by the numbers, get in trouble at low altitude and have to think about how to recover, you are probably doomed.


I've successfully avoided helicopters my whole life. Flying a helicopter has got to be like the bike. How could anyone consciously process everything going on in a helicopter and fly by rote? In fact, I think helicopter instructors just keep one alive long enough for one to develop the "muscle memory".


The most amazing flying I have done as been every minute of my over 2100 hours in a helicopter. Man made a magic carpet. You can get into your own descending air so when you pull power to cushion the landing, you are just increasing your decent rate. Half of your wing is flying into the wind and half is flying downwind. If you are hovering near buildings be careful of the swirling wind that can change your stable hover into ring state. I was a natural, not so much with airplanes. For some reason I feel safer in a helicopter, if I am flying, than I do sitting in my living room. I do not feel this level of safe in any type of airplane.
  #50  
Old September 8th 18, 12:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default Too many accidents

I have been flying since 1980, had one heavy landing a number of years ago, when ASI failed in X country flight. 3000 hours in total solo.
I did however purchase a ASH 31 Mi and despite very good training from the agent in Australia.
Very early on in the flying of this glider I had a flight, both engine problems, refusal to start, and LX screen failing.
I switched to flying glider mode but still managed to land wheels up.
After considerable thought i now figure out the problem.
When stressed we go into fight of flight mode. Blood goes to the legs and leaves the brain. We thus go stupid. I recall looking at the undercarriage but did not say "Wheel down according to placard"
How many good pilots have you seen make stupid errors.
Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head, Older, over confident pilots in very complex aircraft
 




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