Real stats on engine failures?

snip

There are no real stats on engine failures because engine
manufacturers and the FAA don't want those stats to exist. The FAA
could create those stats simply by requiring pilots to report engine
failures for other than fuel exhaustion/contamination reasons, but
will not.

Michael

Even if the FAA did require reporting those failures, without also requiring
pilots/annuals to report to the FAA all the total accumulated hours, the
failure numbers would be useless. (However, I am not an A&P and do not know
if these numbers are reported - I doubt it)

Indeed. Interesting. But I'd still like to see some hard data. This is
the kind of problem I run into...most of your pilot friends report
that they have had a failure, but the majority of mine report none.
And none of the 2000+ hour CFI types I asked (I asked 4 of them) have
ever experienced an engine failure. My dad was a pilot with well over
12,000 hours and never had one. Another relative had fewer than 500
hours total in his flying carrer and lost one on his first solo XC.

I asked another A&P I ran into at the airport tonight, and he said he
thought it should be at least 40,000 hours per in-flight engine
failure, but really wasn't sure. Since a big part of flying is risk
management, it would be very helpful to *really* know the risks
involved. If the odds of losing an engine are 1 in 50,000 hours, then
night/hard-IFR single-engine flying becomes a great deal more
appealing than if it is 1 in 10,000 hours.

I'll try to go over the NTSB data more thoroughly, I think a
reasonable extrapolation would be that at least 1 in 4 in-flight
engine failures (probably more) would end up in the NTSB database.
But the cursory review I made earlier made me think the numbers were
much less negative than I had considered before. And the opinions of
these A&Ps are very interesting, because while failure might not
require a total overhaul, it will require *something* to be done by a
mechanic...and if these guys are seeing 30-40 engines make it to TBO
for every one needing repair due to an in-flight failure, that might
well support the 40,000 to 50,000 hour hypothesis.

Cheers,

Cap


(Michael) wrote in message om...
(Captain Wubba) wrote
Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying
single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility
of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about
3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to
give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a
piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once
every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically*
over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is
at least 40,000 to 50,000 hours per in-flight engine failure.

The only vaguely official number that I've ever seen came from a UK
accident report for a US-built twin. The UK investigators queried the
FAA on engine failure rates for the relevant engine, and the only
answer they got was that piston engines have failure rates on the
order of 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000 hours. This is consistent with my
experience. I've had one non-fuel-related engine failure (partial,
but engine could only produce 20-30% power) in 1600+ hrs. Most people
I know with over 1500 GA hours have had an engine failure.

50,000 hours is not realistic. Excluding a few airline pilots (who
have ALL had engine failures) all my pilot friends together don't have
50,000 hours, and quite a few of them have had engine failures.

I've heard the maintenance shop thing before, but you need to realize
that most engine failures do not result in a major overhaul. Stuck
valves and cracked jugs mean that only a single jug is replaced;
failure of the carb or fuel injection system (my problem) affects only
that component. And oil loss will often seize an engine and make it
not worth overhauling.

There are no real stats on engine failures because engine
manufacturers and the FAA don't want those stats to exist. The FAA
could create those stats simply by requiring pilots to report engine
failures for other than fuel exhaustion/contamination reasons, but
will not.

The truth is, FAA certification requirements have frozen aircraft
piston engines in the past, and now they're less reliable than
automotive engines (not to mention ridiculously expensive).

Michael

No hard data, just a fact. Flying since '72, including 18 years of airline
flying, and I've never had a catastrophic failure of any kind, ever. Just
lucky, I guess.

I have just over 5000 hours and have had
4 complete failures, one partial power failure, and 2 precautionary shutdowns.
I've also had a dual prop governor failure in a Twin Otter which lead to
shutting down one of the engines.

It makes me really happy that I did my initial training in gliders!!



-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

On 24 Nov 2003 11:31:57 -0800
(Captain Wubba) wrote:

Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying
single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility
of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about
3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to
give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a
piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once
every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically*
over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is
at least 40,000 to 50,000 hours per in-flight engine failure. The
place where he works sometimes as a mechanic has plenty of planes come
in for overhauls and annuals, and he estimates that for every plane
that has had an engine failure before TBO, at least 20-30 make it to
TBO without any failure (which would extrapolate to a similar figure).
The flight school he teaches at has 7 Cessnas used for primary
training and rental that have flown at least 40,000 hours total in the
six years he has been there, and they have not experienced a single
engine failure.

I emailed Lycoming, and (unsurprisingly) they told me they did not
keep records about engine failure rates.

So I'd like to find out if anyone has done any objective analysis of
certificated, piston-engine failure rates in light airplanes. I have
seen all kinds of 'guesses', but little in the way of objective facts.
After analyzing NTSB accident data and comparing to annual GA
flight-hours, I'm starting to think my friend is on the right track,
but that is a relatively small sample, and has some methodologial
flaws. It's funny. I know 20,000 hour CFIs who have never had an
engine failure, and I also know 300 hour PP-ASELs who have had engine
failures.

Just for giggles, I asked 8 pilot friends/relatives if they had ever
had an engine failure. The only 'yes' was a relative who lost an
engine after takeoff on his first solo cross-country in 1958. And I
know one other pilot who had an engine failure, who I wasn't able to
talk to.

So what is it? If the engine-failure rate is one failure for every
50,000 flight hours, I'll feel much less reticent about night/IFR
single-engine flying than if it is one in 10,000 hours. Anybody have
any facts or hard data, or have any idea where I might be able to
track some down?

Thanks,

Cap


I think it's a reasonable question to ask bnut to me it's more important to
know how many engine failures resulted in fatalities since if the engine
failed and they walked away from it then who the hell cares what failed
as long as you live to fly again. Am I making any sense? The stat I'm
tinking of would be engine failures where a fatality resulted and that
number will be many more hours than just a engine failure and that's
the number that I'll live close to if I have to live close to some fear
factor. Even if I'm carried away on a stretcher it beats paying the
down mortgage. The engine will just be the last thing I'd think of.

Do you know what that does to your numbers when you include fatals?


R. Hubbell

studentpilot wrote:

Know a bloke well with over 15'000 hours, he has had no engine failures.
He has had however 4 self inficted engine failures, these were fuel
system failures. Mostly failure to put enough in, failure to check
for water contamination properly, failure to know the aircraft fuel
system. This blokes expirence is all single engine, going from little
Lyc's to Radial's and turbine.

Why do you exclude fuel exhaustion, fuel contamination etc? Don't they
happen if you're IFR?

If you're IFR or at night it doesn't really matter WHY it stops.

"R. Hubbell" wrote Cap


I think it's a reasonable question to ask bnut to me it's more important
to
know how many engine failures resulted in fatalities since if the engine
failed and they walked away from it then who the hell cares what failed
as long as you live to fly again. Am I making any sense? The stat I'm
tinking of would be engine failures where a fatality resulted and that
number will be many more hours than just a engine failure and that's
the number that I'll live close to if I have to live close to some fear
factor. Even if I'm carried away on a stretcher it beats paying the
down mortgage. The engine will just be the last thing I'd think of.

Do you know what that does to your numbers when you include fatals?


R. Hubbell


That is ridiculous! What happens after the engine failure is a combination
of timing, luck, location, with a mix of judgment and skill. That is what
prevents fatalities.

Saying what you said, is like saying a fart is only a fart, if it results in
a ****.

Get a grip!
--
Jim in NC

Well, I've had a couple of precautionary shutdowns in a commuter t-prop,
both ultimately traced to faulty sensor or indicator; and a couple of
failed generators or hydraulic systems, etc, but these last occurred in
Boeing transports with multiple redundancy. I've never encountered a
failure that was a show-stopper. Knock wood.

JG


"Ditch" wrote in message

I have just over 5000 hours and have had
4 complete failures, one partial power failure, and 2 precautionary
shutdowns.
I've also had a dual prop governor failure in a Twin Otter which lead to
shutting down one of the engines.

Night VFR engine failu

1. turn on landing lights,

2. if you don't like what you see, turn them back off!

Hope this helps,
Peter

Andrew Rowley wrote in message . ..
studentpilot wrote:

Know a bloke well with over 15'000 hours, he has had no engine failures.
He has had however 4 self inficted engine failures, these were fuel
system failures. Mostly failure to put enough in, failure to check
for water contamination properly, failure to know the aircraft fuel
system. This blokes expirence is all single engine, going from little
Lyc's to Radial's and turbine.

Why do you exclude fuel exhaustion, fuel contamination etc? Don't they
happen if you're IFR?

If you're IFR or at night it doesn't really matter WHY it stops.

Because I can control these problems. If I do a proper preflight, the
probability of fuel contamination is very, very low. If I do the
proper fuel calculations and check the fuel levels and carry proper
reserves, I'm not going to run out of gas.

This is about risk management. I can manage the risks of fuel
contamination or exhaustion very easily, if I exercise diligence and
care. If those are no longer concerns, the primary engine-related
concern becomes mechanical failure, and that's what I'm looking at.


Cap

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message news:%oDwb.3381$ZE1.73@fed1read04...
On 24 Nov 2003 11:31:57 -0800
(Captain Wubba) wrote:

Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying
single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility
of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about
3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to
give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a
piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once
every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically*
over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is
at least 40,000 to 50,000 hours per in-flight engine failure. The
place where he works sometimes as a mechanic has plenty of planes come
in for overhauls and annuals, and he estimates that for every plane
that has had an engine failure before TBO, at least 20-30 make it to
TBO without any failure (which would extrapolate to a similar figure).
The flight school he teaches at has 7 Cessnas used for primary
training and rental that have flown at least 40,000 hours total in the
six years he has been there, and they have not experienced a single
engine failure.

I emailed Lycoming, and (unsurprisingly) they told me they did not
keep records about engine failure rates.

So I'd like to find out if anyone has done any objective analysis of
certificated, piston-engine failure rates in light airplanes. I have
seen all kinds of 'guesses', but little in the way of objective facts.
After analyzing NTSB accident data and comparing to annual GA
flight-hours, I'm starting to think my friend is on the right track,
but that is a relatively small sample, and has some methodologial
flaws. It's funny. I know 20,000 hour CFIs who have never had an
engine failure, and I also know 300 hour PP-ASELs who have had engine
failures.

Just for giggles, I asked 8 pilot friends/relatives if they had ever
had an engine failure. The only 'yes' was a relative who lost an
engine after takeoff on his first solo cross-country in 1958. And I
know one other pilot who had an engine failure, who I wasn't able to
talk to.

So what is it? If the engine-failure rate is one failure for every
50,000 flight hours, I'll feel much less reticent about night/IFR
single-engine flying than if it is one in 10,000 hours. Anybody have
any facts or hard data, or have any idea where I might be able to
track some down?

Thanks,

Cap


I think it's a reasonable question to ask bnut to me it's more important to
know how many engine failures resulted in fatalities since if the engine
failed and they walked away from it then who the hell cares what failed
as long as you live to fly again. Am I making any sense? The stat I'm
tinking of would be engine failures where a fatality resulted and that
number will be many more hours than just a engine failure and that's
the number that I'll live close to if I have to live close to some fear
factor. Even if I'm carried away on a stretcher it beats paying the
down mortgage. The engine will just be the last thing I'd think of.

Do you know what that does to your numbers when you include fatals?


R. Hubbell


Actually I'd really like to know that too. When I delve more deeply
into the NTSB stuff, I'll break out fatalities. And it does
relate....I am most concerned with IFR and night flying, with this
specific question. An engine loss at altitude in day VFR should almost
never be fatal; it probably shouldn't even bend the plane very often.
But at night or in hard IFR I'd expect the fatality rate to be rather
high. What it is exactly will be interesting to find out. Certainly it
is easier to find out fatalities than it is total engine failures. If
I can glean these numbers from the NTSB database, I'll let you know.
Since this is mostly aboiut risk management, it will be interesting to
really know the risks *after* the engine failure as well.

Cheers,

Cap