FLAPS

I don't think you can answer the question by focusing only on the issue of
flaps. A better question is "How many new and different things will my
first glider have that I am not experienced with?" If the answer is only
"just flaps" - no big deal. If it's flaps plus things like no spoilers/90
degree flaps, or a drogue chute, or side mounted stick, or V tail, or large
span - then you have to be very careful that you are not over extending
yourself. My first glider did not have flaps (Phoebus B) - my son's did
(ASW-20). Both were good choices I think.

Good luck

Roy

Flaps are not a problem as long as you remember they
are there and remember to set them appropriately. In
many ways they can make the glider easier to fly in
terms of better approach control, and better aileron
control if negative flap is selected for the early
part of the take off ground run and after touchdown
on landing. However the ability to evolve a third arm
for operating the flap lever would be useful on occasions!

Other things to consider a
1) Extra complication and maintenance costs.

2) Positive flap limiting speeds. You can damage things
if you fly too fast in positive settings.

3) Spin recovery becomes a bit more complicated. You
are most likely to spin when turning slowly in a thermal
with positive flap selected, in which case the first
action must be to select neutral or negative flap before
carrying out the normal spin recovery. Otherwise you
risk exceeding the flap limiting speed in the recovery
dive, which is a possible cause of several glider break-ups
and fatalities.

Basically flapped gliders should not be flown by forgetful
or disorganised pilots!

Derek Copeland
---------------------------

At 02:06 24 August 2005, Skysailor wrote:
I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the
past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders
for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing
a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that
big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped
gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6
approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big
surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally
fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my
LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of
90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible.

I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90
degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...).

LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency"
brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been
fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does
it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no
wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to
steer and brake at the same time.

Kirk
66

You might want to look further at the brake system. On my LS-3a, which
has a similar arrangement to yours, I can stand it on the nose with the
brakes. And I have never had a particularly difficult time steering
while braking.



Larry





" wrote in message
oups.com:

Casey is correct - a lot depends on the glider. My flapped LS6
approaches and lands at very similar speeds to Casey's LS8 (no big
surprise there). On the other hand, the Pik-20B that I occasionally
fly approaches a LOT slower and can be stopped a lot sooner than my
LS6. Lower wing loading has something to do with it, but the nature of
90 degree flaps means a slower approach is usually possible.

I like them both - and there have been times I wished my -6 had 90
degree flaps on approach! (or at least a real brake...).

LS brakes, on the other hand...Hideous small Tost drum "emergency"
brake actuated via the rudder pedals. That design task must have been
fobbed off on the newest apprentice at the LS factory. Not only does
it not provide any reassuring retardation (especially landing with no
wind - or worse still, full of water), but it's almost impossible to
steer and brake at the same time.

Kirk
66

Wish that I could figure out why this is so.....I've pulled many brakes on multiple gliders and cleaned, sanded, scuffed and lubed any parts that needed to be and have never found any of them to be worth more than a barely noticable effect in deceleration. There was a mod where the brake was split in order to be more effective several years ago that some folks tried but in the end most said that they didn't think it was worth it. No doubt that the hydraulic brakes will put them all on their noses but it's a rare drum that will.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

There's an outfit in California called "Vintage Brakes" that will overhaul Tost drum brakes with excellent, long lasting results. They did the drum brake on a Mile High Gliding 2-33 and it's equal to the hydraulic disk brake on the other 2-33.

Bill Daniels
"Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:hcaPe.124896$E95.65391@fed1read01...
Wish that I could figure out why this is so.....I've pulled many brakes on multiple gliders and cleaned, sanded, scuffed and lubed any parts that needed to be and have never found any of them to be worth more than a barely noticable effect in deceleration. There was a mod where the brake was split in order to be more effective several years ago that some folks tried but in the end most said that they didn't think it was worth it. No doubt that the hydraulic brakes will put them all on their noses but it's a rare drum that will.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ...
There's an outfit in California called "Vintage Brakes" that will overhaul Tost drum brakes with excellent, long lasting results. They did the drum brake on a Mile High Gliding 2-33 and it's equal to the hydraulic disk brake on the other 2-33.

Bill Daniels


Ahhhh....maybe my winter project! Got any more contact info?

Thanks,
Casey

In article .com,
"skysailor" wrote:

I have approximately 110 hours in sailplanes in the past 2 years and
had no prior experience. I am evaluating used gliders for purchase.The
big kahuna's in the club are pretty adamant about purchasing a first
glider without flaps. My question is: Are flaps that big a problem for
a low time pilot and why??? There many good flapped gliders for sale. I
would like some opinions concerning this.

I don't think flaps are a big deal if you can cope with a manual
transmission car ;-)

Looking back, i started flying my first flapped glider (an original
model Janus) when I had 75 hours total time and was signed off on it 3.5
months later when I had 110 hours -- the club had a ten flights/ten
hours requirement for it due to not only the flaps but also the
sensitive all-flying tailplane and aerotowing on a belly hook (and also
perhaps quite a bit of "the club's shiny new toy" syndrome). So I did
10 flights in it (hmm ... and only 7 hours) in those three months, but
also 11.5 hours in a Club Libelle, 8 hours in a Std Libelle, 7 hours in
a K6 and 3 hours between Blanik and K13.

I think you should do a few flights in a flapped two-seater (such as the
Janus) before flying a flapped single-seater and see how you go.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Flaps = more opportunities for a mistake as you have something else to care
of ...

It's built for:
- better XC task average speed

It helps:
- For take-off, with negative setting
- For xc landing in a short field

It makes things more difficult:
- When landing - If flaps set to "Landing" but you're too low
- When landing in turbulence - significantly less controls efficiency
- When landing at too-low speed - regaining speed takes long long
- When spiraling - less controls efficiency

In short - If you're not yet an reaonably experienced XC pilot, better to
avoid flaps ... Go for unflapped ship then start using your wing ballasts
first then if you still want to improve your perf then only ...

Jean

Then you must have double-jointed ankles!

Seriously, what it needs is a bigger wheel, a hydraulic disc brake, and
activation by a squeeze lever on the stick.

Which is sorta what DG is offering on new LS8s and 10, isn't it? Except
they may use the spoiler lever for the brakes - due to trim lever on
stick.

I'm happy for you that your LS3 has a working brake - it's probably
been worked on, which I agree I should do to mine soon. Forturnately,
I now fly off a grass field and stopping is not a great problem.

But it's nice that the glider manufacturers have over the years come to
realize that gliders are often flown from paved strips - and now
provide decent brakes.

Kirk
66