spins from coordinated flight

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I have a limited exposure to spins (I've demonstrated spins or received
spin instruction in 5 different airplanes on
six different occasions). I have a commercial certificate (although you
wouldn't think so from my demonstration
of a chandelle). Maybe I did have to demonstrate a power on stall
while in a climbing 20 degree bank, once.
As I recall, we survived it.

I return to the original question: if the ball is in the middle will it
spin?

Becuase I believe snowmobile suits are for snowmobiling and not for
flying I won't have a chance to explore it
with an aerobatic instructor and an appropriate (but drafty) airplane for
a few months -- so I thought I would
put the question in a bottle and throw it in the ocean.

Regards
Todd



"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
On Dec 27, 1:42 pm, "Todd W. Deckard" wrote:
Can you depart and spin from coordinated flight? Specifically a
coordinated
climbing turn?

And courting disaster doing a chandelle? If you're going to do a
commercial ticket you should be familair with spins intimately. An
incipient spin shouldn't even make you break a sweat.



The answer to the ball question is no. It won't spin. A ball centered
airplane in a climbing turn is compensated by rudder and is considered
coordinated (in the classic sense).

If you introduce a climbing turn stall with the ball centered, you might
get a temporary wing drop at the break but unless you introduce a yaw rate
as the stall breaks; no yaw rate...no spin!


My thought is that we're splitting hairs in this thread. If the airplane is
in coordinated flight and stalls straight ahead (no wing drop), a spin can't
happen. But on most aircraft, one wing will drop first even if the ball is
centered. This wing drop creates a yaw, opening up the possibility for a
spin.





--
Dudley Henriques

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
My thought is that we're splitting hairs in this thread. If the airplane
is in coordinated flight and stalls straight ahead (no wing drop), a spin
can't happen. But on most aircraft, one wing will drop first even if the
ball is centered. This wing drop creates a yaw, opening up the possibility
for a spin.


But the links that Dan_Thomas sent me indicated that the airplane would not
stall "straight ahead" if you were in a climbing turn. The outside wing
has a higher AoA
which diverges even further as it initially drops.

It was intriging to me as our vacation strip demands a short field takeoff
into a hedgerow of trees
and you'd want to be mindful of this if you stumbled into a maximum
performance evasive manuever
thru errors in planning or execution.

Kyle Boatright wrote:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I have a limited exposure to spins (I've demonstrated spins or
received spin instruction in 5 different airplanes on
six different occasions). I have a commercial certificate (although
you wouldn't think so from my demonstration
of a chandelle). Maybe I did have to demonstrate a power on stall
while in a climbing 20 degree bank, once.
As I recall, we survived it.

I return to the original question: if the ball is in the middle will
it spin?

Becuase I believe snowmobile suits are for snowmobiling and not for
flying I won't have a chance to explore it
with an aerobatic instructor and an appropriate (but drafty) airplane
for a few months -- so I thought I would
put the question in a bottle and throw it in the ocean.

Regards
Todd



"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...

On Dec 27, 1:42 pm, "Todd W. Deckard" wrote:
Can you depart and spin from coordinated flight? Specifically a
coordinated
climbing turn?

And courting disaster doing a chandelle? If you're going to do a
commercial ticket you should be familair with spins intimately. An
incipient spin shouldn't even make you break a sweat.



The answer to the ball question is no. It won't spin. A ball centered
airplane in a climbing turn is compensated by rudder and is considered
coordinated (in the classic sense).

If you introduce a climbing turn stall with the ball centered, you
might get a temporary wing drop at the break but unless you introduce
a yaw rate as the stall breaks; no yaw rate...no spin!


My thought is that we're splitting hairs in this thread. If the
airplane is in coordinated flight and stalls straight ahead (no wing
drop), a spin can't happen. But on most aircraft, one wing will drop
first even if the ball is centered. This wing drop creates a yaw,
opening up the possibility for a spin.





--
Dudley Henriques


The wing drop at a 1g stall is on the roll axis not the yaw axis . You
need rudder to induce the yaw rate at the stall necessary to cause entry
into auto rotation.




--
Dudley Henriques

99% of the pilots will never have the ball centered all the way to a stall
break, it might look good 1/4 of a second before the break, but most pilots
stop actively flying when they start to feel the onset of the buffet. The
skilled pilot never stops making control adjustments.

I'll cite a comment made by a DPE after he had passed a student I sent him
for the private pilot practical test...
"That airplane is out of rig, everybody spins it doing accelerated stalls,
but your student didn't."



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
|
My thought is that we're splitting hairs in this thread. If the airplane is
in coordinated flight and stalls straight ahead (no wing drop), a spin can't
happen. But on most aircraft, one wing will drop first even if the ball is
centered. This wing drop creates a yaw, opening up the possibility for a
spin.

Thanks for this, this is consistent with what I believe (however I would be
eager to be rebutted).

Todd

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
The answer to the ball question is no. It won't spin. A ball centered
airplane in a climbing turn is compensated by rudder and is considered
coordinated (in the classic sense).

If you introduce a climbing turn stall with the ball centered, you might
get a temporary wing drop at the break but unless you introduce a yaw rate
as the stall breaks; no yaw rate...no spin!

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I return to the original question: if the ball is in the middle will
it spin?
If you introduce a climbing turn stall with the ball centered, you might
get a temporary wing drop at the break but unless you introduce a yaw
rate as the stall breaks; no yaw rate...no spin!

There is a possibility that a flip to the outside can occur in a low
speed but large bank climbing turn, since the angle of attack of the
outboard wing is greater than that of the inboard wing. Thus, in a left
climbing turn of 30 degrees or maore bank, the right wing experiences a
higher angle of attack, and will stall first if the airspeed drops low
enough, and especially if an accelerated stall is induced. I have had
this demonstrated tome in a C150. The result is dramatic. The craft
flips to the right, as in a half snap roll, ends up upside down, and one
is obliged to recover by certain mens. My instructor then practiced much
back stick to get back to right side up, managing the zoom safely. It's
a bit more of a thrill and happens quicker than a conventional spin. It
can be done in both directions, plenty of altitude, please....

NOTE: If you analyze angles of attacks in urns, level, descending,
climbing, using a spiral helical surface as reference, you will see that
in turning descent, the inner wing experiences a greater angle of attack
and will fall safely to the inside of the turn, but when climbing the
oppsite wing stalls first. Te flip to upside down is a total surprise.
Hence in climbing steeply out of a takeoff, the speed, turn rate and
bank must all be carefully managed. Usually, the less the turn rate, the
better, the ball must alwys be kept centered and the airspeed must be
kept always at least 1.2 Vso or more.

A further hint is that in a cross-wind condition, especially when
higher level winds are of a changing direction (usually rotates to the
right on ascent in the northern hemisphere), it is best to make the
first turn into the wind; If you take off of RY270 and the surface wind
is from 300, the wind at 200 feet AGL will be from 310 and that at 400
feet AGL will be at 320 degrees, and likely of a higher wind speed. A
gradual right turn (10 degrees bank) will present you with increasing
airspeed and a more rapid rate of climb; wery safe and very efficient.

On descent to landing, opposite things happen. As you descend, the head
wind speed diminshes, and in the northern heispere it shifts a bit to
the left. Here in Ohio, if there is any significant surface wind, I
usually keep about 10 knots extra on early final (if Vso is 60 kts, I
carry 70 or 80 kts. When about a half mile from touchdown, I often see a
5 to 10 konot drop in airspeed with no action on my part. Crosswind
components accordingly dimiish in speed and shift a bit to the left. A
crab angle serves on the first part of final descent. If any significant
crosswind remains below 200 feet, a shift into a side slip, where
fuselage is aligned with the runway while the upwing wing is down is
best for touchdown, often on one wheel for a moment.

Angelo Campanella

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I return to the original question: if the ball is in the middle will
it spin?
If you introduce a climbing turn stall with the ball centered, you might
get a temporary wing drop at the break but unless you introduce a yaw
rate as the stall breaks; no yaw rate...no spin!

There is a possibility that a flip to the outside can occur in a low
speed but large bank climbing turn, since the angle of attack of the
outboard wing is greater than that of the inboard wing. Thus, in a left
climbing turn of 30 degrees or maore bank, the right wing experiences a
higher angle of attack, and will stall first if the airspeed drops low
enough, and especially if an accelerated stall is induced. I have had
this demonstrated tome in a C150. The result is dramatic. The craft
flips to the right, as in a half snap roll, ends up upside down, and one
is obliged to recover by certain mens. My instructor then practiced much
back stick to get back to right side up, managing the zoom safely. It's
a bit more of a thrill and happens quicker than a conventional spin. It
can be done in both directions, plenty of altitude, please....

NOTE: If you analyze angles of attacks in urns, level, descending,
climbing, using a spiral helical surface as reference, you will see that
in turning descent, the inner wing experiences a greater angle of attack
and will fall safely to the inside of the turn, but when climbing the
oppsite wing stalls first. Te flip to upside down is a total surprise.
Hence in climbing steeply out of a takeoff, the speed, turn rate and
bank must all be carefully managed. Usually, the less the turn rate, the
better, the ball must alwys be kept centered and the airspeed must be
kept always at least 1.2 Vso or more.

A further hint is that in a cross-wind condition, especially when
higher level winds are of a changing direction (usually rotates to the
right on ascent in the northern hemisphere), it is best to make the
first turn into the wind; If you take off of RY270 and the surface wind
is from 300, the wind at 200 feet AGL will be from 310 and that at 400
feet AGL will be at 320 degrees, and likely of a higher wind speed. A
gradual right turn (10 degrees bank) will present you with increasing
airspeed and a more rapid rate of climb; wery safe and very efficient.

On descent to landing, opposite things happen. As you descend, the head
wind speed diminshes, and in the northern heispere it shifts a bit to
the left. Here in Ohio, if there is any significant surface wind, I
usually keep about 10 knots extra on early final (if Vso is 60 kts, I
carry 70 or 80 kts. When about a half mile from touchdown, I often see a
5 to 10 konot drop in airspeed with no action on my part. Crosswind
components accordingly dimiish in speed and shift a bit to the left. A
crab angle serves on the first part of final descent. If any significant
crosswind remains below 200 feet, a shift into a side slip, where
fuselage is aligned with the runway while the upwing wing is down is
best for touchdown, often on one wheel for a moment.

Angelo Campanella

The answer to the ball question is no. It won't spin. A ball centered airplane in a climbing turn is compensated by rudder and is considered coordinated (in the classic sense).

Ok, now I'm confused again. If "stall plus yaw" is all that's necessary, and all (normal) turns involve yaw, then why won't it spin? Do I have the wrong definition of "yaw"?

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
The answer to the ball question is no. It won't spin. A ball centered
airplane in a climbing turn is compensated by rudder and is considered
coordinated (in the classic sense).

Ok, now I'm confused again. If "stall plus yaw" is all that's
necessary, and all (normal) turns involve yaw, then why won't it spin?
Do I have the wrong definition of "yaw"?

Jose

A "normal" turn is accomplished by splitting the lift vector, NOT by
holding in yaw. Yaw should only be present in the turn dynamic during
the entry into the turn and exit from the turn. Once stabilized in the
turn, there should be no yaw present. There could be however if the turn
was a slipping turn or a skidding turn.


--
Dudley Henriques

Recently, Bertie the Bunyip posted:

BTW, stalls in a climbing turn are pretty much standard standard stuff
even for Private pilots.

Standard, and _required_ for the practical. I had to do both climbing and
descending turning stalls for my checkride. Possibly because I chose to do
my checkride in the middle of winter with an 18 kt. breeze and the
examiner didn't want to die... ;-)

Neil