Anyone ever had to use a winch guillotine for real?

With all this talk about plasma rope, etc. and the need for guillotines,
etc. I got to wondering how many times had winch guillotines been
operated in a real emergency. Certainly people have tested them, but if
you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Gary

Have seen it once on our neighbouring club (in Germany) a couple of years
ago.

The cable was attached to the front (aero tow) tow hook, not the one for
winch launches.
The Pilot didn´t realise that the cable was cut and still hanging from his
plane until he was well into the downwind.

Regards,
Markus


Gary Emerson schrieb in Nachricht ...
With all this talk about plasma rope, etc. and the need for guillotines,
etc. I got to wondering how many times had winch guillotines been
operated in a real emergency. Certainly people have tested them, but if
you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Gary

habit of relying on a back release?

BT

"Markus Feyerabend" wrote in message
...
Have seen it once on our neighbouring club (in Germany) a couple of years
ago.

The cable was attached to the front (aero tow) tow hook, not the one for
winch launches.
The Pilot didn´t realise that the cable was cut and still hanging from his
plane until he was well into the downwind.

Regards,
Markus


Gary Emerson schrieb in Nachricht ...
With all this talk about plasma rope, etc. and the need for guillotines,
etc. I got to wondering how many times had winch guillotines been
operated in a real emergency. Certainly people have tested them, but if
you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Gary

Two or three years ago, when I was flying, I heard it happen on the
radio at a neighbour airfield. An Astir CS had been correctly hooked
up on the CofG hook, but it wouldn't release by pulling the yellow
ball or by auto-release. Whe winchman cut the cable, which dragged
around some hundreds of meters. The Astir made a 180 deg. turn and
landed safely in an acer next to the airfield. When tested after
landing, the ring would come out without any problems. I later
understood a faulty cable ring had been used, one with a welding line
in it. If such a ring would have been rotated slightly during the
launch, it could have caused the non-relase.

Regards, Olfert.



Gary Emerson schrieb in Nachricht ...
With all this talk about plasma rope, etc. and the need for guillotines,
etc. I got to wondering how many times had winch guillotines been
operated in a real emergency. Certainly people have tested them, but if
you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Gary

Over 33 year period I can recall 3 instances at my club when the
guillotine was used, and one when it should have been but wasn't. (The
latter was during reverse pulley launching - the drogue while still
being towed dropped to the side of the runway among a group of children,
and one of them was scooped up in it and suffered a broken leg. Chopping
the cable would have done little or no damage to them. There is a
separate issue as to why launching took place with the kids near enough
to be at risk, but that's how it was on the day.) I believe there have
been a few more incidents when I was not presenet or did not hear
details afterwards.

Most involved ring not freeing from hook on glider, cable fouled round
glider axle, or drogue deployed over wing. One was when a pilot
suffered some emergency during the launch - heart? - but it resulted in
a fatal crash anyway, though the cable was chopped to give it the best
chance.

Chris N.

Gary Emerson wrote:

if you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider
loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Two cases in our club.

The first happened many years ago to one of our pilots visiting another
club. The glider overran the winch cable and it got caught in the main
wheel. The launch proceeded. The winch driver operated the guillotine -
but it failed to cut the cable. Bystanders radioed a warning to the
pilot. He attempted to circle the winch in a tight turn, but spun in
and was killed in the crash.

The second was more recent.

A group of members tried experimenting with auto-tow. Once again there
was an overrun and the rope got wound around the main wheel axle. At
the top of the launch the tow car observer cut the rope with a knife
and the glider landed safely. (There was no release on the tow car end
of the rope.)

A serviceable, tested guillotine (or release on the tow vehicle for
autotow) is essential.

Of equal importance is a "snake" - a length of garden hose threaded over
the cable between the glider and the retrieve 'chute - which reduces
the tendency for the cable to get snagged on parts of the glider.

Enjoy your Christmas


Ian

"Ian Forbes" wrote in message
...
Gary Emerson wrote:

if you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider
loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Two cases in our club.

The first happened many years ago to one of our pilots visiting another
club. The glider overran the winch cable and it got caught in the main
wheel. The launch proceeded. The winch driver operated the guillotine -
but it failed to cut the cable. Bystanders radioed a warning to the
pilot. He attempted to circle the winch in a tight turn, but spun in
and was killed in the crash.

The second was more recent.

A group of members tried experimenting with auto-tow. Once again there
was an overrun and the rope got wound around the main wheel axle. At
the top of the launch the tow car observer cut the rope with a knife
and the glider landed safely. (There was no release on the tow car end
of the rope.)

A serviceable, tested guillotine (or release on the tow vehicle for
autotow) is essential.

Of equal importance is a "snake" - a length of garden hose threaded over
the cable between the glider and the retrieve 'chute - which reduces
the tendency for the cable to get snagged on parts of the glider.

One of our club members called it a 'stiffy'. (You Canadians can quit
laughing now.) In my experience, vinyl garden hose becomes a bit brittle in
colder weather and cracks and breaks. I've been using pneumatic hose over
wire rope though our drogue chute for some time and think this would also
work well at the ring end also. It wears well, is a bit more pliable, has
somewhat smaller cross section, works fine in cold weather, is available in
some variety of colors if color coding is needed, and is generally cheaper
than a similar length of garden hose. Of course, used garden hose is widely
available at no cost but may also have become more brittle with age from UV
effects also.

We ran some spectra through the middle of the drogue chute. We abandoned
this after a few launches as there was no resistance to twisting (like wire
rope). For whatever reason, on most launches the chute and lines twisted
and the chute wouldn't open which resulted in its own set of problems. We
were operating on a hybrid rope at the time, with 1000ft of spectra on the
end of our wire rope.

Frank Whiteley

"Olfert Cleveringa" wrote in message
om...
| Two or three years ago, when I was flying, I heard it
happen on the
| radio at a neighbour airfield. An Astir CS had been
correctly hooked
| up on the CofG hook, but it wouldn't release by pulling
the yellow
| ball or by auto-release. Whe winchman cut the cable, which
dragged
| around some hundreds of meters. The Astir made a 180 deg.
turn and
| landed safely in an acer next to the airfield. When tested
after
| landing, the ring would come out without any problems. I
later
| understood a faulty cable ring had been used, one with a
welding line
| in it. If such a ring would have been rotated slightly
during the
| launch, it could have caused the non-relase.

Interesting observation about welded rings and Tost releases
!
In Australia, it is a regulation that only Tost rings be
used with Tost releases, for the reason that badly finished
welded rings have been known to jam. It seems that the
thicker region around the weld can act like a "cam" action
to lock the beak of the release, so neither back release nor
hand operation will work.
Happy Christmas to all
John G.

I had to use the guillotine on the winch at the Vultures Club in MI at Big
Beaver Airport in the mid 1960's. Johann (John) Kuhn was flying a Ka-6 as I
remember though it might have been a Libelle. I honestly don't remember
what it was but I was running the winch as usual. Willy (Biber something)
hooked him up and I gave the Johann the tow. I slacked off the power near
the top of the tow and there was no release. When he was approximately
vertical overhead I pulled the guillotine release. The cable did not get
cut. I got out of the winch, raised the guillotine by hand and threw it
back down again. It cut this time. John landed trailing about 800 ft of
cable.

mg

Gary Emerson wrote:

With all this talk about plasma rope, etc. and the need for guillotines,
etc. I got to wondering how many times had winch guillotines been
operated in a real emergency. Certainly people have tested them, but if
you know of a case where the winch driver had to cut a glider loose, let
us know here on RAS. We don't need too many specifics, just trying to
see how many times it's happened.

Gary

Michael I Green

email:
_____
|
`-----------( )-----------'
'
mighty gorilla
Duo Discus N175DD
PW-5 N80MG

I know of one fatal accident where the drogue parachute took the cable over
the wing after release, the winch driver operated the guillotine which
failed to cut the cable; there was nothing more the winch driver could do.
It is not certain that cutting the cable would have saved the pilot, but it
would have given him a much better chance.

As a result of this accident new guillotines were developed, and new
maintenance and testing procedures introduced; we hope and believe that
such a failure is not now possible.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Chris Nicholas" wrote in message
...

Over 33 year period I can recall 3 instances at my club when the
guillotine was used, and one when it should have been but wasn't. (The
latter was during reverse pulley launching - the drogue while still
being towed dropped to the side of the runway among a group of children,
and one of them was scooped up in it and suffered a broken leg. Chopping
the cable would have done little or no damage to them. There is a
separate issue as to why launching took place with the kids near enough
to be at risk, but that's how it was on the day.) I believe there have
been a few more incidents when I was not present or did not hear
details afterwards.

Most involved ring not freeing from hook on glider, cable fouled round
glider axle, or drogue deployed over wing. One was when a pilot
suffered some emergency during the launch - heart? - but it resulted in
a fatal crash anyway, though the cable was chopped to give it the best
chance.

Chris N.