F-14 vs. F-15 accel.

On 12/20/04 16:38, in article ,
"Ed Rasimus" wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:11:59 GMT, "Frijoles"
wrote:

John, Ed -- enough already...
...the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US
fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments.

BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US
inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point"
negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D
Tomcats.

BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want
to talk "relative performane" you've got to throw in a lot of
stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't
forget the ROE.

When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of
difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do
a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign
supreme.

Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in
discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory".

Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.

IMHO.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

Ed,

You're right about absolutes to a point, but in the teen series fighters,
the F/A-18 has better high AOA ability. Its ability to point the nose when
slow and to force the defender to acknowledge its presence makes it slightly
superior. Add the new "departure resistant" PROM 10.7 FCC software, and
you've got a better jet.

I'd like to believe I'm a better pilot that the Viper drivers I've got video
of, but I'm really not. I have a jet that will just do things that their
airplanes won't.

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
the F-16 big mouth.

It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

--Woody

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:56:51 GMT, Woody Beal
wrote:

On 12/20/04 16:38, in article ,
"Ed Rasimus" wrote:


BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want
to talk "relative performance" you've got to throw in a lot of
stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't
forget the ROE.

When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of
difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do
a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign
supreme.

Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in
discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory".


Ed,

You're right about absolutes to a point, but in the teen series fighters,
the F/A-18 has better high AOA ability. Its ability to point the nose when
slow and to force the defender to acknowledge its presence makes it slightly
superior. Add the new "departure resistant" PROM 10.7 FCC software, and
you've got a better jet.

Which kind of brings us full circle, doesn't it. High AOA ability is
always impressive, but it isn't good tactics to get to the place where
you have to use it. The best BFM is flown fast--ideally around your
corner velocity. If you find yourself in the regime of dependence upon
"departure resistant" software, you've already made some mistakes.

And that causes us to return to the basic truism that no one
intentionally fights 1-v-1 WVR for real.

I'd like to believe I'm a better pilot that the Viper drivers I've got video
of, but I'm really not. I have a jet that will just do things that their
airplanes won't.

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
the F-16 big mouth.

It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

And, I'm sure you recall exposure to aggressors--it isn't much
different whether you were dealing with USAF or USN, but typically
they took airplanes with significantly inferior numbers and used them
to soundly thrash us until we learned the basics of our own airplanes.

Vipers beat Eagles which beat Toms which get beaten by Hornets, which
in turn can get beaten by Vipers occasionally.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
the F-16 big mouth.

It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

Any guy so willing to reverse in front of me is fair game. Many Turkey
drivers would argue your concept of "matter of record."

R / John

BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the
US
inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to
"point" negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including
the B/D Tomcats.

High alpha, low energy state negates that ability to point everywhere ...
I'm thinking primarily in the vertical. OTOH, I will agree that the Hornet
is the best damn level turning jet in the inventory. So if you're a
two-dimensional kinda guy ....

R / John

On 12/20/04 17:23, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
the F-16 big mouth.

It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

Any guy so willing to reverse in front of me is fair game. Many Turkey
drivers would argue your concept of "matter of record."

R / John



John,

At the risk of sounding pompous--so I say this with the most hesitation and
humbleness--my "matter of record" is personal experience against all of
these platforms.

If you think that all Hornet drivers automatically drop anchor, then I've
given you the wrong impression. Pointing and shooting is what happens when
both fighters get in the phone booth--giving the Hornet it's real advantage.
Remember the Super Fox? The Hornet with its new FCC software is better.

--Woody

"Woody Beal" wrote in message
...
On 12/20/04 17:23, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With
the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability
is
the F-16 big mouth.

It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

Any guy so willing to reverse in front of me is fair game. Many Turkey
drivers would argue your concept of "matter of record."

R / John



John,

At the risk of sounding pompous--so I say this with the most hesitation
and
humbleness--my "matter of record" is personal experience against all of
these platforms.

If you think that all Hornet drivers automatically drop anchor, then I've
given you the wrong impression. Pointing and shooting is what happens
when
both fighters get in the phone booth--giving the Hornet it's real
advantage.
Remember the Super Fox? The Hornet with its new FCC software is better.

--Woody


That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was not so
super when it was just man y mano). We're not talking about shooting what
flys out in front of you in a group gaggle at Fallon, Nellis, Miramar, Yuma
or Holloman.

That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was not
so super when it was just man y mano).

Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.

R / John

At the risk of sounding pompous--so I say this with the most hesitation
and
humbleness--my "matter of record" is personal experience against all of
these platforms.

Risk noted. Anyone who's strapped on a fighter will know EXACTLY where
you're coming from.

If you think that all Hornet drivers automatically drop anchor, then I've
given you the wrong impression. Pointing and shooting is what happens
when
both fighters get in the phone booth--giving the Hornet it's real
advantage.
Remember the Super Fox? The Hornet with its new FCC software is better.

Never said that. You implied an affinity for such tactics.

My Love to Erin, have a joyful Christmas
John

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
the F-16 big mouth.

Anyone done some moves against the Raptor yet?
_____________
José Herculano

I talked to an engineer from the Raptor program (anyone see the rolling
AIM-9 launch videos? He set those shots up), and he said that they'd
thrown several different types up against it and it was eating everyone
alive. Didn't really elucidate much, but we had been talking agility
so you can infer what you wish.