USAF Academy looking for new gliders

Am 03.08.10 03:16, schrieb Bruce Hoult:
looked at the PW-6, Puchacz, ASK-21 but decided we'd get much better
much better value for money by stretching to the DG1000 Club for
something like EUR 10k more than the K21.

That gets you a 25 years newer design, 10 points better L/D ratio,

I think the "full" DG1000, while a slightly more expensive, is an even
better value for the money.

even more aerobatic (even outside loops and flick rolls if you're into

I think for primary aerobatics trainig, the ASK21 is the better choice.
The DG1000 is just too slippery, especially at higher speeds. With some
figures, e.g. the cuban eight, the red line apporaches *very* fast.
Combined with the slow roll rate this can quickly put you in a pretty
uncomfortable situation. Besides that to calculating the tail ballast of
the ASK is a very educative exercise for a student. Oh, and nothing
beats the really graceful spin of the ASK.

Did you really do a downward outside loop with the DG? The DG being that
slippery, I didn't dare yet. (Besides that the POH does not allow for
it, but that's a different question.)

On Aug 3, 10:08*pm, John Smith wrote:
Am 03.08.10 03:16, schrieb Bruce Hoult: looked at the PW-6, Puchacz, ASK-21 but decided we'd get much better
much better value for money by stretching to the DG1000 Club for
something like EUR 10k more than the K21.

* That gets you a 25 years newer design, 10 points better L/D ratio,

I think the "full" DG1000, while a slightly more expensive, is an even
better value for the money.

Maybe, but we didn't have that much to spend. The cheapest one was
already a stretch.

We also specifically wanted fixed undercarriage to make it simpler and
avoid expensive training errors. The lower stance also makes it much
easier to get in and out. That's not a big deal when you're doing long
cross country flights, but it's much better when you're doing mostly
short training flights and rides for the public. The standard model
needs a box to stand on for a lot of short, old, or inflexible people.


Did you really do a downward outside loop with the DG? The DG being that
slippery, I didn't dare yet. (Besides that the POH does not allow for
it, but that's a different question.)

I don't do aerobatics, but I'm pretty sure I did see it in the POH.
I'll check next time I'm at the field.

Bruce Hoult wrote:
I think the "full" DG1000, while a slightly more expensive, is an even
better value for the money.

Maybe, but we didn't have that much to spend. The cheapest one was
already a stretch.

This real-world argument is hard to beat.

We also specifically wanted fixed undercarriage to make it simpler and
avoid expensive training errors.

You don't *need* to retract the gear, you know. Plus, there's an
acoustic gear warning.

In our club, the primary single seater for students is the LS4 (with
gear warning, too, as we've put one into all our gliders). We have the
rule that they just don't touch the gear on their first three or
somesuch flights. Not because we fear a belly landing, the gear warning
would prevent this, but because we don't want them being distracted.
Works fine for us. Besides, I believe that if a student gets used to the
gear from the very beginning, it will pretty soon become second nature.
But we fly from a grass airfield, a club with a concrete runway may see
this less relaxed.

The lower stance also makes it much easier to get in and out.

I heard the rumor that DG plans a "DG 1000 executive" edition.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2891752/DG%2...0Executive.jpg

Did you really do a downward outside loop with the DG? The DG being that
slippery, I didn't dare yet. (Besides that the POH does not allow for
it, but that's a different question.)

I don't do aerobatics, but I'm pretty sure I did see it in the POH.
I'll check next time I'm at the field.

I do know for sure that it isn't. The POH has a pretty restrictive list
of allowed figures. E.g. the cuban eight is not on it, and after the
experience I described in an earlier post, I now know why. Still doable,
of course, but you must know what you're doing. I wouldn't dare to try
an outside loop, though. The DG is much too slippery, combined with a
good cross country profile which performs poorly on negative figures.

Just remember - the USAF Academy mission with their Soar-for-All
program is NOT to teach SOARING or even Gliding - but basic
airmanship. They learn stalls and falls, basic pattern work and air
"sense" so extreme acro or high L/D wings are not a real necessary
factor.

On Aug 4, 5:37*pm, Dave Newill wrote:
Just remember - the USAF Academy mission with their Soar-for-All
program is NOT to teach SOARING or even Gliding - but basic
airmanship. They learn stalls and falls, basic pattern work and air
"sense" so extreme acro or high L/D wings are not a real necessary
factor.

They also want gliders that are FAA certified in the standard and
utility categories with a 16 KT crosswing capability. Hoping for
delivery in about a year.

Horst '77