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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
"Blueskies" wrote in message ... The news story said it may be a father and son team... Sad... A father and son team flew in the demonstration. The son is the surviving Mustang pilot, the father was flying a Corsair and was not involved in the collision. |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:41:28 -0700, "Gattman"
wrote: http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's AirVenture... Update: http://www.in-forum.com/articles/ind...07d b116a5449 Wahpeton man killed after planes collide at air show Kim Winnegge, The Forum Published Saturday, July 28, 2007 A Wahpeton, N.D., man died Friday after performing in a Wisconsin air show. Gerald Beck, 58, died after the plane he was flying collided with one flown by Casey Odegaard, 24, of Kindred. The men each were flying P-51 Mustangs, single-seat fighters used during World War II, at the experimental air show in Osh Kosh, Wis., officials said. |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
My condolences to the family of the deceased pilot.
Not enough data to second guess what happened but I have hundreds of formation landings in the P-51. The procedure was for leader of flight to land on the down wind side of the runway. That way any prop wash would not blow across the runway and into the #2 as he flared or touched down. Also the #1 man landed as close to the edge of the R/W as he could (wing over the R/W lights on narrow R/w's) and the #2 landed as far to the other side of R/W as he could to give maximum clearance between the wings if an overrun took place. The #2 would use the radio and tell the #1 that he was down and had his bird under control and was not overrunning the #1. If the #2 was over running #1 then he told #1 and #1 put on power to give more clearance. In the three years I flew the bird I don't remember any overruns in the FTRGP. This was on narrow WWII Japanese runways (75 Ft) to wide R/W's (200 ft) we built. Does anyone know if the birds pitched or flew a rectangular pattern? Basic procedure is you have the air speed and touch down under control and no overruns. Comments on this Dudley? Big John ************************************************** **** On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:41:28 -0700, "Gattman" wrote: http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's AirVenture. The FAA says the accident with the two P-51 Mustangs happened at shortly after 3pm, after the planes finished a performance at the Experimental Aircraft Association's show. Investigators with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are investigating. The last fatal crash at EAA Airventure happened last year on July 23. A Washington state couple was killed when their single engine, home-built plane crashed on approach at Whittman Regional Airport. |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
Big John wrote: My condolences to the family of the deceased pilot. Not enough data to second guess what happened but I have hundreds of formation landings in the P-51. The procedure was for leader of flight to land on the down wind side of the runway. That way any prop wash would not blow across the runway and into the #2 as he flared or touched down. Also the #1 man landed as close to the edge of the R/W as he could (wing over the R/W lights on narrow R/w's) and the #2 landed as far to the other side of R/W as he could to give maximum clearance between the wings if an overrun took place. The #2 would use the radio and tell the #1 that he was down and had his bird under control and was not overrunning the #1. If the #2 was over running #1 then he told #1 and #1 put on power to give more clearance. In the three years I flew the bird I don't remember any overruns in the FTRGP. This was on narrow WWII Japanese runways (75 Ft) to wide R/W's (200 ft) we built. Does anyone know if the birds pitched or flew a rectangular pattern? Basic procedure is you have the air speed and touch down under control and no overruns. Comments on this Dudley? Big John Just saw the complete film of the crash. Runway 36 at Oshkosh is 150 feet wide as I remember it. The 2 Mustangs were dissimilar; a D flown by Odegard, and an A, flown by Beck. Beck was the trailer to the left and behind the D through touchdown. They were trying to execute a section landing. The D looked normal to me on final airspeed wise. He touched down on the mains and was fairly tail high in his roll out. His tailwheel hadn't settled in before he was hit. Beck looked a bit hot to me. There definitely (obviously) was a closure rate through the landing. It looked to me as though Beck was hot and just a bit long through his landing....not much, but he had overtake. Beck's right wingtip looked like it impacted the left horizontal stabilizer on the D. There must have been a strong positive pitch moment induced as they hit. The D pitched forward violently right through the prop and onto the spinner where it dug in hard. I can't explain the behavior of the A other than an involuntary pitch input on the stick by Beck as he felt the impact. His right wintip must have been under the D's stabilizer to cause the violent pitchup and over to inverted suffered by the A. The A pitched up hard and to the right and went in inverted behind the D. It looked like Beck must have been killed instantly. These things happen so fast you can be looking right at them and even with an experienced eye, not be seeing what actually happened. I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's. Dudley Henriques |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's. Dudley Henriques It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1. That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed. What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time? |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
Blueskies wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's. Dudley Henriques It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1. That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed. What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time? 2 planes are a section; 4 a flight. Normally for jets, or as is the case for nose wheel airplanes generally, you do a section landing with the wingman directly back but not stacked down. You touchdown with lead and maintain position through the roll out. For tail wheel airplanes this is a whole new ball game because of the peripheral visibility cues and lack of visibility directly over the nose through touchdown. This issue is especially present in Mustangs. I have never advocated section landings in Mustangs for civilian pilots for the above reasons. It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the same reason. Dudley Henriques |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
"Dudley Henriques" wrote It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the same reason. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet between them. I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time. Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go. -- Jim in NC |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
Jim
In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead. As Dudley said and I agree, civilian pilots flying the '51 should not attempt formation landings. Their life and the bird are too precious. Confed Air Force also say the same thing per Dudley. On the "A" model of second bird. Did someone put an allison engine in it? Did it have a bird cage or bubble? I hope everyone realizes that we were not there and are making comments from the little data available. On the word section, Element is also used. I think Section came from the Brits??????. Both are two planes. Four birds are a flight composed of two elements. Leader and his wing man are #1 & #2. On the other side matching #2 is #3 and on his wing is #4. If the flight goes into echelon, then #3 moves out from close formation with #1 and #2 moves under #1 over to the other side and flight is then #1,#2,#3 & #4. This formation is normally used so that each bird can break out behind the smaller numbered bird into the landing pattern. #4 is tail end charlie ) This leads to another War Story. One time I was in a 48 ship echelon of P-80's (A's & B's) and leader turned into the echelon to get lined up for the pass over the field. I was about #20 and cut donut holes in my drawers. What #48 did I don't know. The tail end got snapped like a whip. They got back in some semblance of an echelon before the pass over field I was told ) We then went and did some acrobatics. In the loops they were like a cork screw with birds ahead coming down at the same time trailing birds were going up starting their loop. Later the leader doing some tight turns and ask #48 how he was doing and #48 in a strained voice used to combat 'G's said "I'm doing OK Sir " ) In my career in the AAC/USAF I made 3 ship formation take offs and landings only during Basic training (on grass field) in the T-6 (we were a experimental group that flew the T-6 in both Basic and Advanced). After we proved the point they took the BT-13 out of basic and every one flew the T-6. In the formation landings you flew tight formation and could see the ground behind the leader and you never knew when you were going to hit the ground and then transition from flight to 'ground hog' ( We also shot hurdle stages in the T-6. Would drag it over the rope with the little flags so you could see it and just before going over you chopped the throttle. As the bird started to sink you put in full up elevator and after making the hard Navy landing from 15 feet with brakes locked you stopped in 100-150 feet. Tires just skidded on the grass so you didn't nose over. We didn't know better in those days to not do some of the things we would not do today. Dudley. Where did you see the full important part of the pattern through the accident? Can you give me the URL? Keep um flying. Big John ************************************************** ******************* On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 00:52:45 -0400, "Morgans" wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the same reason. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet between them. I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time. Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go. |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
Big John wrote:
In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead. I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at Oshkosh must have been total losers to crash doing something so simple. |
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Mustang Collision Oshkosh
"Big John" wrote in message ... Jim On the "A" model of second bird. Did someone put an allison engine in it? Did it have a bird cage or bubble? Keep um flying. Big John It had the three bladed prop so I assume Allison engine and the bird cage fastback fuselage... |
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