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Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway



 
 
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  #91  
Old January 19th 08, 05:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Stan Prevost
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Posts: 118
Default Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
ODPs came very close to becoming mandatory for Part 91 in the last
amendment to 91.175 issued last year.


That would require ATC to learn to issue clearances that are consistent with
the ODPs.

Often one will get a clearance that includes something like "...enter
controlled airspace on heading 270..." when the ODP calls for climbing above
the floor of controlled airspace on a very different heading. Recently I
responded by saying that I would turn to 270 upon completion of the Obstacle
Departure Procedure. The controller said "What's that?".

All the back and forth involved in trying to get a clearance that is
consistent with pilot intent is difficult if one has to go through AFSS
Clearance Delivery.



  #92  
Old January 20th 08, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Peter Clark
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Posts: 538
Default Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:13:37 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
ODPs came very close to becoming mandatory for Part 91 in the last
amendment to 91.175 issued last year.


That would require ATC to learn to issue clearances that are consistent with
the ODPs.

Often one will get a clearance that includes something like "...enter
controlled airspace on heading 270..." when the ODP calls for climbing above
the floor of controlled airspace on a very different heading. Recently I
responded by saying that I would turn to 270 upon completion of the Obstacle
Departure Procedure. The controller said "What's that?".

All the back and forth involved in trying to get a clearance that is
consistent with pilot intent is difficult if one has to go through AFSS
Clearance Delivery.


Those more familiar with the system and TERPS etc would have to answer
this, but if you are departing an uncontrolled field off a runway with
an ODP but no published SID, and the clearance carries a "Enter
controlled airspace heading blah" does the entry altitude have to be
above the controllers MVA?
  #93  
Old January 24th 08, 02:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
John[_14_]
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Posts: 8
Default Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

Sam Spade wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:

J.Kahn writes:


If no instrument departure gradients are published in a departure
procedure, then the default gradient requirement applies, which is
200 ft/NM.



OK, thanks.

It looks like IFR departures from runway 26 in L35 aren't allowed at
all, so I
suppose I'll have to depart from runway 8 in the future if I really
want to
depart IFR. Odd that there's nothing for runway 26 since it leads
right over
the lake.


Gosh, I wish you would submit your resume to the FAA. Then, you could
be the boss of TERPS and get these credits for little narrow lakes
applied and forget the big friggen mountains a bit further out, you
numbskull.


At Canadian airports in the mountains where the required gradient is too
much they have a cat called "Spec Vis" which may involve a vfr initial
climb over the airport, then to a fix, then a shuttle climb to mea. See
the dep procedure for Prince George BC below. Do any US airports in the
hills do that?


DEPARTURE PROCEDURE
Rwy 09 - SPEC VIS - CLB visual over APRT
to 1200. Continue CLB on TRK 271 from
"YPW" NDB to 2400. Left turn direct
"YPW" NDB to cross at 3900. Shuttle
(max 200 kt) to MEA BPOC.
  #94  
Old January 25th 08, 10:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

ODPs came very close to becoming mandatory for Part 91 in the last
amendment to 91.175 issued last year.



That would require ATC to learn to issue clearances that are consistent with
the ODPs.

Often one will get a clearance that includes something like "...enter
controlled airspace on heading 270..." when the ODP calls for climbing above
the floor of controlled airspace on a very different heading. Recently I
responded by saying that I would turn to 270 upon completion of the Obstacle
Departure Procedure. The controller said "What's that?".

All the back and forth involved in trying to get a clearance that is
consistent with pilot intent is difficult if one has to go through AFSS
Clearance Delivery.



Well, ODPs have been mandatory for Part 121 and 135 since last June and
ATC still doesn't have a clue at many locations. But, at some mountain
airports with a tower (EGE comes to mind) ATC is very aware of the
procedures.

If the controller says "huh?" then the pilot needs to say "I will by
flying the FAA obstacle departure procedure" or words to that effect.
That has, alas, always been the case.
  #95  
Old January 25th 08, 10:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,326
Default Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

Peter Clark wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:13:37 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

ODPs came very close to becoming mandatory for Part 91 in the last
amendment to 91.175 issued last year.


That would require ATC to learn to issue clearances that are consistent with
the ODPs.

Often one will get a clearance that includes something like "...enter
controlled airspace on heading 270..." when the ODP calls for climbing above
the floor of controlled airspace on a very different heading. Recently I
responded by saying that I would turn to 270 upon completion of the Obstacle
Departure Procedure. The controller said "What's that?".

All the back and forth involved in trying to get a clearance that is
consistent with pilot intent is difficult if one has to go through AFSS
Clearance Delivery.



Those more familiar with the system and TERPS etc would have to answer
this, but if you are departing an uncontrolled field off a runway with
an ODP but no published SID, and the clearance carries a "Enter
controlled airspace heading blah" does the entry altitude have to be
above the controllers MVA?


Normally, there wouldn't be an MVA, rather a center MIA. The pilot has
the right and duty to challenge a heading that is inconsistent with the
ODP. Where terrain is known to be a problem, the controller is supposed
to qualify the heading assignment with words to the effect "terrain
permitting." Some do, but some don't.
  #96  
Old February 1st 08, 05:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
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Posts: 8
Default Obstacle avoidance between take-off and airway

On Jan 13, 6:09*am, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:13:08 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:
[...]Personally I don't know of
anyone who has used a vfr sectional in ifr conditions, and I don't
think I ever would.


I use sectionals all the time in IFR flight, especially when planning
departures from mountainous airports. I used to fly a King Air (part
135), and carried WAC charts so I would know where the low
terrain was.

Looking at the sectional, a runway 26 departure from Big Bear seems
pretty hairy in a Bonanza.



 




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