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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 17th 08, 07:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]
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Posts: 597
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

gatt wrote:
Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Ferry pilots don't carry unwitting passengers in back when they're
overgross.




They might if they hadn't already loaded it to capacity with fuel. Ferrying
operations are a good example of flying overgrossed successfully.
Unfortunately, the cabin is usually stuffed with fuel bladders so there's no
room for passengers unless they want to ride outside in the smoking section.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com



  #22  
Old April 17th 08, 07:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
gliderguynj
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Posts: 34
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

So how is the conversation going to go?...Listen, I've never flown
with passengers in the back before. The plane is also over the legal
limit, but I think the numbers aren't too bad. Unless of course you
really aren't the 200lb you claim and are more like 225lbs.... and
the luggage is heavier than we think. Maybe I should use a scale and
actually see what the weight being put in the plane really
is....Nah,,,,but anyway, I posted it online, and everyone said we
should be OK because those funny engineers put in a fudge factor, so
the numbers listed don't really need to be followed.....

It's not like Burt Rutan is flying his buddies to the Hilton Ranch...

With all due respect to the original poster, I'd really reconsider
this outing as planned....





  #23  
Old April 17th 08, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Michael[_1_]
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Posts: 185
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 17, 1:54*pm, WingFlaps wrote:
Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training?


That is exactly what he is saying. It's also pretty normal these days
to get a license in a 4-seater (Skyhawk or Warrior) without ever
having anyone in the back seat or coming anywhere near gross weight.

Michael
  #24  
Old April 17th 08, 07:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
gatt[_3_]
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Posts: 193
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

WingFlaps wrote:

Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.


Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training?


I don't see anything I've written anywhere above that suggests such a
thing.



-c
  #25  
Old April 17th 08, 07:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
B A R R Y[_2_]
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Posts: 782
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

WingFlaps wrote:

This is ridiculous. How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.


We all know about ferry flights, flown by a lone professional.
Professional ferry pilots don't ask anonymous Usenet posters how they
think the plane will fly, either.

Would you tell the passengers that the airplane is over it's
manufacturer specified takeoff weight limit, and allow them the free
will to get off? If you wouldn't do that...

If someone did get off, the problem is solved! G

I fly at max gross all the time, as my plane needs serious ballast to be
in CG with two big guys up front. I agree the wings won't fall off at
ferry flight weights. Think of how important a small spot of water or a
fouled plug, that might not have been a big deal within limits, becomes
when overweight. Think of how airplanes gain weight, and engines lose
performance as they age.

The unwitting passengers and the "if you have to ask as a pilot" part of
this equation that bugs me.
  #26  
Old April 17th 08, 07:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,130
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 17, 11:52 am, gatt wrote:

Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.


Knowingly taking off over gross invalidates any insurance.
Hurt or kill a passenger and see what the judge has to say about it.

Dan

  #27  
Old April 17th 08, 08:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
NW_Pilot
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Posts: 53
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross


"tman" inv@lid wrote in message
news
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back.
Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage.

When I fill the fuel to the *tabs*, calc everyone's weight honestly and
consider baggage -- I'm 75 lbs over the 2450 gross on departure. Maybe
100 over gross if I assume a "lie about weight" factor or some inaccuracy
with filling the tanks. Now I'm scratching my head about just how risky
this is. I know (others) have pushed over gross in these planes way more
under worse conditions, and have almost always gotten away with it. I'm
inclined to just do it, and be cognizant that it will perform differently,
i.e. don't expect the same picture on climbout that you would when solo.

Risky? Or just roundoff error on the weight? Here are some other
factors:

This is the 160HP C172, standard.
Departure runway is 5000'.
No steep terrain to climb out of.
Plenty of alternates along with the way with 3000 runways.
Not particularly hot, humid, or high. 50 degrees at 1000 MSL for
departure or any point of landing.

I'm figuring I'm 3% over gross, causing most of my V speeds to increase
1.5%, so say -- instead of flying short final at 65 knots, I'd fly at 66
knots... OK wait I can't hold airspeed to +/- 1 knot on most days anyways.

I'm thinking through many of the factors, and it is only a "little" over
gross, only on the first hour or so of the trip. What else should I be
aware of? Am I dangerous?

T


Unless your working with a over gross authority and a special airworthyness
certificate then keep it legal and stay within gross limits.

Other wise cessna 172's fly good 30% over if you have a long run way and
healthy engine and good cool temps.

As for Speeds that a hit amd miss each airplane is diffrent when over gross.

Am I dangerous? if you have not been properly instructed on flying over
weight aircraft the answer is yes.


  #28  
Old April 17th 08, 08:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
NW_Pilot
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Posts: 53
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross


"Jay Somerset" wrote in message
...
I would be much more concerned with the BALANCE part of W&B. Yes, 100
pounds over gross is not wise, at it reduces your safety margin with
turbulence, and landing and takeoff distances.

But you really need to make sure that your CG is not out of the
allowable range -- with rear-seat pax and luggage, it could be pretty
far back. Also, you have specific weight limits in the rear luggage
area -- it's all in the POH.

So, but your heaviest passenger in the front seat, and the lightest
luggage in the rear area, and see where your CG lies.



Yawn!!!!


  #29  
Old April 17th 08, 08:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
NW_Pilot
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Posts: 53
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Apr 17, 2:53 am, tman inv@lid wrote:
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back.
Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage.


The biggest problem with flying a little overgross is the same problem
with flying at high density altitude. The plane will perform different
and a pilot who isn't expecting this can run into serious problems.
The site picture over the nose will look a bit different. This is why
I always teach my students to climb out on airspeed. I know some CFIs
focus on the site pitch picture but that only works with consistant
weight, altitude, etc.
Many pilots have bitten the big one because they keep pulling the nose
up when climbing out of mountain airports until they stall it. They
keep trying to achieve the site picture their CFI taught them down in
the valley.

-robert, CFII

Agree Agree!!!!


  #30  
Old April 17th 08, 08:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
NW_Pilot
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Posts: 53
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
tman wrote:
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back.
Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage.

When I fill the fuel to the *tabs*, calc everyone's weight honestly and
consider baggage -- I'm 75 lbs over the 2450 gross on departure. Maybe
100 over gross if I assume a "lie about weight" factor or some inaccuracy
with filling the tanks. Now I'm scratching my head about just how risky
this is. I know (others) have pushed over gross in these planes way more
under worse conditions, and have almost always gotten away with it. I'm
inclined to just do it, and be cognizant that it will perform
differently, i.e. don't expect the same picture on climbout that you
would when solo.

Risky? Or just roundoff error on the weight? Here are some other
factors:

This is the 160HP C172, standard.
Departure runway is 5000'.
No steep terrain to climb out of.
Plenty of alternates along with the way with 3000 runways.
Not particularly hot, humid, or high. 50 degrees at 1000 MSL for
departure or any point of landing.

I'm figuring I'm 3% over gross, causing most of my V speeds to increase
1.5%, so say -- instead of flying short final at 65 knots, I'd fly at 66
knots... OK wait I can't hold airspeed to +/- 1 knot on most days
anyways.

I'm thinking through many of the factors, and it is only a "little" over
gross, only on the first hour or so of the trip. What else should I be
aware of? Am I dangerous?

T


I never advise a pilot to load any airplane over gross.
I will tell you that the big killer in these situations is the cg
location, especially the aft cg.
Tell you what; instead of my "advising you" on what to do specifically
with this flight, let me suggest to you that you run a weight and balance
for this aircraft at full tanks, THEN run the same pax and baggage loading
figuring 1/4 tanks, just to see what this does to the cg.


--
Dudley Henriques


Making a Tail Skidder out of a 172 even a 182 when the pilot gets out is
fun!!!! 30% over gross Extreme Aft CG Utterly Priceless and FUN!!! But all
in a days work.

Here is a sample for a PA28...
http://aircraftdelivery.net/ferrypil...nkedpermit.pdf

Will scan in a 172 and 182 when I have time...

Don't fly over Gross unless approved to do so and have been instructed on
techniques you can end up a wet stain on the ground.


 




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