CFI in IMC with Student

: I haven't read the regs lately, but do they specifically require
: simulated instrument flight in order to count?

No... you could do all your IFR training in actual conditions. It *does*
require that the dual you get is from a CFII, however. That's not to say you cannot
get dual instruction in IMC from a CFI as the OP suggested... just that it cannot
count it towards the dual required for an IR. Now there's an alphabet soup...

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:37:52 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

: I haven't read the regs lately, but do they specifically require
: simulated instrument flight in order to count?

No... you could do all your IFR training in actual conditions. It *does*
require that the dual you get is from a CFII, however. That's not to say you cannot
get dual instruction in IMC from a CFI as the OP suggested... just that it cannot
count it towards the dual required for an IR. Now there's an alphabet soup...

I don't think we're taking about an *instrument* student. Isn't this
subthread talking about whether IMC encountered whilst a primary
student (flying with a CFI, not CFII) could be countable towards the 3
hours required in 61.109(3)?

And 61.109(3) doesn't say whether the time has to be simulated or
actual, it just says "solely by reference to instruments".

Having a CFII provides 3 additional priv over a regular CFI

1) Ability to provide the 15 hours dual required for an instrument
rating
2) Ability to provide IPCs
3) Ability to provide type rating training not limited to VFR.

Other than that, everything else is just a CFI. I try to take my
private students in IMC at least once. It provides two things 1)
Understanding of what its really like and 2) Better, more realistic,
discussions on outs.

-Robert

The CFI (or CFII) only must hold CFI priv's in the aircraft in order to
log it as dual. So a CFI, non MEI cannot log dual in a twin. The
language of the FARs reads "within the limitations of the certificate".

-robert

wrote:
: I haven't read the regs lately, but do they specifically require
: simulated instrument flight in order to count?

No... you could do all your IFR training in actual conditions. It *does*
require that the dual you get is from a CFII, however. That's not to say you cannot
get dual instruction in IMC from a CFI as the OP suggested... just that it cannot
count it towards the dual required for an IR. Now there's an alphabet soup...

Ok, for some reason I was thinking this was the few hours of instrument
training needed for the private.

Matt

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:24:19 +0000 (UTC), (Roy Smith) wrote:

In article t,
Roy Page wrote:
I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

Yes, assuming the CFI is IFR current.

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

It depends. Is the CFI comfortable flying in IMC? How skilled is the
student? For somebody getting close to being ready for their
checkride, it should be no big deal, especially in relatively benign
conditions, and would be a valuble experience for the student.

It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.

--
Jay.
(remove dashes for legal email address)

A Lieberman wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:37:06 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

I second this thought..... Minimums are there for a reason. Now if the
original poster said the instructor went below minimums, then he would have
reason to question him.

For me, there is nothing more magical then breaking out at minimums.

If you go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...pproachintoMBO and
download the video, this is a clip of one my circle to land approaches down
to minimums.


Nice video. Was that the stall horn I heard chirping on your
base-to-final turn? (2:05 and 2:11 in the video). Does that typically
happen?

In article ,
Jay Somerset wrote:

It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.

You are correct -- they cannot. One of the few things you get with the II
is the ability to have your instruction count towards the required hours of
instruction for the instrument rating.

On 2005-12-12, Jay Somerset wrote:
It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.

Even if the CFI was a CFII, the primary student's instrument experience
would not apply to the instrument rating requirements. Would it apply
to the private "flight by reference to instruments" or whatever it's
called? Why not? Part of my private pilot "hood time" was in actual.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2005-12-12, Jay Somerset wrote:

It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.


Even if the CFI was a CFII, the primary student's instrument experience
would not apply to the instrument rating requirements. Would it apply
to the private "flight by reference to instruments" or whatever it's
called? Why not? Part of my private pilot "hood time" was in actual.


Flight experience doesnt expire. If the time is dual given by a CFII,
then that time is loggable towards the eventual completion of an
instrument rating. There is no limitation on the Instrument Instruction
given by an authorized instructor based on the "student" pilot rating or
lack therof.

If your CFI for your private was a CFII as well, that time does count
for instrument instruction. If not, it counts for instrument
experience/training/hood time/whatever name you want to put on the
category. Given that MOST pilots require more than the bare minimums to
earn endorsement as proficient, those 3 hours as a private probably wont
be a deal breaker.

In my case, I have instrument experience and instruction that nearly
completes the requirements for an instrument rating. Its also nearly 4
years old. I wont be starting over, but when all the time is added up
when I finally restart and get the rating, it wont be anywheres near the
minimum required hours.

Dave