Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 2:19:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
First time you have a malfunction with one of these contraptions here comes the lawsuit and good by contraption.

With the “technology will fix everything “ mentally, maybe you guys need to design stall/spin proof gliders, cause after all we can’t trust that guys will not be distracted and spin in. Ph we can’t do that, it will impinge on ship performance.you can’t always engineer out “stupid “.

I have about four dozen patents to my name, but I guess I had better stop designing things right away! I don't want to get sued. In fact, we should probably just close the patent office. Too dangerous to encourage this type of inventive behavior.

Where do you draw the line on using technology to enhance safety? Do you use FLARM? an ELT? an airspeed indicator? do you wear shoes?

People are getting killed here, through no fault of their own. If some device as simple as an airbag could give them a fighting chance, it' worth doing.

Matt

Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated� technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental�!

As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe� contraption you could possibly design.

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:44:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated� technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental�!

As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe� contraption you could possibly design.

Accidents like this can happen to anyone, regardless of their training, reputation, or experience. There are all kinds of scenarios that can trigger a kiting event. One particular danger, given the demographics of our glider pilots, is sudden pilot incapacitation, such as having a heart attack or a stroke.

Having an automatic release mechanism sounds like a reasonable safety enhancement that should be relatively doable from a technology perspective. There are number of approaches, including a simple mechanical system based on pulling all the way back on the tow plane stick, or some mechanical or electronic mechanism that can detect an upward force on the tow hook that exceeds the elevator authority of the tow plane.

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 11:26:06 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:44:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated� technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental�!

As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe� contraption you could possibly design.

Accidents like this can happen to anyone, regardless of their training, reputation, or experience. There are all kinds of scenarios that can trigger a kiting event. One particular danger, given the demographics of our glider pilots, is sudden pilot incapacitation, such as having a heart attack or a stroke.

Having an automatic release mechanism sounds like a reasonable safety enhancement that should be relatively doable from a technology perspective. There are number of approaches, including a simple mechanical system based on pulling all the way back on the tow plane stick, or some mechanical or electronic mechanism that can detect an upward force on the tow hook that exceeds the elevator authority of the tow plane.

I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing the ring.

Mike, true, guys can have a heart attack or stroke on a tow, but in the past 10 years how many heart attack related tow accidents have we had? Like zero. Here is reality: 99.999% of tow kitting accidents are bone head related! What is so damn hard about ramming into a guys head that he has to be totally focussed the first 1000 ft of a tow? If I sat behind any of you with a 356 magnum held to your head and told you if you get distracted and kite I will pull the trigger! YOU WOULD DO WHATEVER IT TOOK to not kite.
Landing specially off field tales total concentration, and most guys understand that fact, why shouldn’t we insist the same for the first 1000ft of a tow? If you kite on me above that I don’t care, I can handle whatever you throw at me (been there),
Johns idea of something mechanical and simple has some merit for realistic application but that really will not solve a problem which is not mechanical but mental. If it is asking too much for total concentration on takeoff n tow, maybe we’re asking too much for the same on landing. Under those propounding a technological fix, maybe we need to develop a glider auto pilot with autoland functionality. You say “well landing involves a guy killing only himself “, what about gaggles? Maybe we need an automated system to take control of the ship when its too close to another guy? See the point ? When does it turn into ridiculousness?

Is the tow kiting issue serious? Yes. With all this discussion this week here, I was the tow pilot for yesterday’s club ops. I personally talked to all the guys flying, some experienced, some newbies. We discussed what ifs, the critical nature of my life being virtually in their hands the first few minutes of every tow. All were appreciative and attentive to my concerns. Before every tow after the line was taught, I stopped and asked each pilot to physically check their canopies AND to pay the Fin attention completely the first 1000ft of tow. Not hard, didn’t take much time, but it put guys on alert .

If every operation did these things, we could prevent/minimize the majority of these accidents.

Will bone heads still kill themselves and others? Yes but they will be rare and few. In that case I will take my chances on the 1 in a million heart attack. Unless you want to design, install and mandate the automatic cockpit EEG.
Dan

In kiting situation tow pilot most likely is pulling the stick with both hands. If the tow release would be electrically actuated with trigger on the stick?

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:10:01 AM UTC-7, Rhubarb wrote:
I believe that full up elevator is what the towpilot will instinctively do in a kite siuation. This device will detect that and hopefully not give any false positives

release logic something like:-
1) GPS groundspeed ~60kmh for for ~5 seconds (so its not an engine test)
2) engine throttle ~80% for ~5 seconds (so its a take-off)
3) full up elevator (for more then ~0.2 second to filter out a knock)

when 1) and 2) are satisfied the system is "armed". A low groundspeed or Landing flaps could disarm it

I have chosen a low groundspeed in 1) to accomodate a strong head wind

GPS groundspeed and full elevator are easy to measure. Throttle a little trickier - maybe one could use flaps instead. tweak as necessary

Manual override, arm and disarm switches in the cockpit of course. some LEDs.

a simple embedded CPU costing 1$ can easily handle this and is very reliable. The BOM could be under 50$. This can be built by a hobbyist.

The tricky bit is
* Mounting the sensors
* triggering the release if its not electical

Peter

Wouldn't it be easier to design an electrical detach of tow rope by a button on the stick or throttle. This way the tow pilot decides and it would take a fraction of a second to activate. As stated before, helicopters use both a stick mounted electronic release and a stick mounted Manuel release. Full disclaimer, I am not a tow pilot, not a mechanic, can afford new tape each time I assemble, and I don't unbuckle to stand up in flight to untangle yaw strings. A few days ago I would have thought that was normal, now I am confused.

LOL Jonathan that last part got me laughing, me too lol.
Dan

Applebay tow hook used on the Zuni and I've heard of it installed on ASW 20's we I'll not allow a very high kiting excursion.

Randy "AV8"

Wouldn't it be easier to design an electrical detach of tow rope by a button on the stick or throttle. This way the tow pilot decides and it would take a fraction of a second to activate. As stated before, helicopters use both a stick mounted electronic release and a stick mounted Manuel release.. Full disclaimer, I am not a tow pilot, not a mechanic, can afford new tape each time I assemble, and I don't unbuckle to stand up in flight to untangle yaw strings. A few days ago I would have thought that was normal, now I am confused.

Hi Jonathan,

there was an attempt to discuss just a solution like that in the 'KGARS - Kiting Glider Automatic Release System' thread on May 15 but it got buried in the chatter.
I think that an electrically triggered system utilizing a capped switch (uncapped (armed) at the beginning of the launch, capped (secured) after the glider has released) has merits over some complicated self-releasing mechanism with all sorts of electronics, which harbors the potential of inadvertently dumping a glider on the other side of the airport fence. Apply the KISS-principle.

Uli
'AS'