GOAT ASW20

wrote on 1/10/2021 4:26 PM:
On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 1/10/2021 6:35 AM:
On Sunday, January 10, 2021 at 6:00:08 AM UTC-8, Hank Nixon wrote:

....


Found an article that claims the '20 spins like a top with landing gear down and landing flaps
selected, but is stable otherwise:

http://flsc.org/portals/12/PDF/Spinning.pdf
I'm surprised to hear that it will spin readily with the full landing flap, because that also
puts the ailerons into negative deflection. That makes it very difficult to stall the tips, a
usual condition for spinning. Perhaps the full deflection affects the airflow over the tail,
and that is cause?

The reason I heard the reason for changing from 60 degree deflection to 40 degrees was to avoid
damage to the flap rods in a hard landing, which was often undetected until the next landing.
Selecting full deflection would then fully deflect only one flap, giving a strong rolling
motion and a very surprised pilot.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
The biggest reason for reduced flap deflection was to prevent damage to the newly implemented gap seals, originally metal and soon after polyester (Mylar).
My experience agrees with Eric in that landing flap makes the ship more docile, not less.
UH
I’ll go out and stall my 20 with full flaps this spring when I get it put back together.

I hope you have the original 20 with the 60 degree flaps and are willing to try turning stalls.
My 20C, with 40 degree flaps, was hard to stall straight ahead, and remained controllable. I
don't recall trying any turning stalls in landing configuration, so I'd like to know how the
"A" model compares to the B or C model.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Yep I have an early “A” model. I’ll get up high this spring and see how it goes. I don’t recall if I did a full flap stall when I initially checked myself out.

Doing it with/without the spoilers open (as is normal for landing), may produce quite different
results, so be careful up there.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Originally Posted by Eric Greenwell[_4_]

George Haeh wrote on 1/10/2021 9:33 AM:
Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.


I'm not expecting anyone to try to intentionally spin, but just fly as you normally would, and
"mishandle" it like a person might inadvertently do; eg, a steady, coordinated 20 deg banked
turn while you slow down, or perhaps a shallow skidded turn at slower and slower speeds.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I'm a relatively new 20 a driver ( 50 hrs ) but my third flight I intentionally spun it in both directions on purpose with plenty of altitude ( and a parachute ). I would rather know where the edge is . I haven't spun in landing flap setting. VNE is around 65kts if I recall.

Thanks to the internet I was able to benefit from all the experiences of others . I am about 80% aft cg and found no bad characteristics.

Max flap setting/spoilers is like landing a 1-26 , Just don't do a full stall landing it will drop like a rock .

One fine machine

On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.

I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:29:32 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
You are correct. The manual does say- “The ASW 20 spins easier and flatter with positive (down) flap settings (4+5) than with negative (up) flap settings (2+1). Therefore, setting the flaps in negative positions is a measure to prevent wing dropping and spins.�
The manual also says- “Recovery from spin can be easier achieved, if the flaps are set in a negative position.�

On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 14:20:04 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:29:32 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
You are correct. The manual does say- “The ASW 20 spins easier and flatter with positive (down) flap settings (4+5) than with negative (up) flap settings (2+1). Therefore, setting the flaps in negative positions is a measure to prevent wing dropping and spins.�
The manual also says- “Recovery from spin can be easier achieved, if the flaps are set in a negative position.�

More importantly, with any flapped glider you must move the flaps to at least neutral to prevent exceeding positive flap limiting speeds during a spin recovery.

Upon spin entry with a flapped glider, you should always put the flaps to full negative. That reduces the appearent angle of attack and speeds up the recovery.

Le lundi 11 janvier 2021 Ã* 15:27:21 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 14:20:04 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:29:32 AM UTC-8, krasw wrote:
On Sunday, 10 January 2021 at 19:33:58 UTC+2, wrote:
Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?
You are correct. The manual does say- “The ASW 20 spins easier and flatter with positive (down) flap settings (4+5) than with negative (up) flap settings (2+1). Therefore, setting the flaps in negative positions is a measure to prevent wing dropping and spins.�
The manual also says- “Recovery from spin can be easier achieved, if the flaps are set in a negative position.�
More importantly, with any flapped glider you must move the flaps to at least neutral to prevent exceeding positive flap limiting speeds during a spin recovery.

Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?

It's prohibited in the 27 manual. I sold my 20 five years ago and don't have that manual any more.

On 1/11/21 11:54 AM, George Haeh wrote:

Just remember that spins in landing flap are prohibited - all explained in the manual.
I do not remember reading such in the '20 manual, and quick check on limitations and spin section does not mention this?

It's prohibited in the 27 manual. I sold my 20 five years ago and don't have that manual any more.


This is for the ASW20, apparently the original model:

ttps://mgrim.nl/_downloads/asw20l/asw20-flight-manual.pdf

Not seeing any prohibition about landing flap setting, just the verbiage
about spins with positive flaps being easier and flatter.

Maybe other variants are different.

On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
Others I would consider for GOAT:
Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
Happy New Year to all
UH
Well, I rest my case, take a look at the OLC for 1-27, as of now the top of the list is an ASW20, 800 KM flown, 786.5 Km triangle. The 20 still can make the leaderboard, that was a very good flight, the triangle, the toughest of all. Bob

What is it they used to say? It ain't the dog in the fight, it's the
fight in the dog...

Dan

On 1/27/21 2:38 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 8:50:15 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 7:49:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Modern sailplanes have evolved through the years and many older have lasted the test of time. During the 1970's Schelicher produced what I call the, "Greatest Of All Time", the ASW20. Production began around 1977 and immediately sailplane pilots were joining the ranks of owning the sleek beautiful glider. The early models, incorporated a wonderful flap system that allowed the pilot to land in places that were usually out of reach for other sailplanes. Dragging that 20 in with those full landing flaps was truly impressive. Some had problems with the flaps, yes they were to be respected and if used improperly could and did result in deadly accidents.
There were over 900 ASW20's built including wing extension models know as the L. The early models were fantastic to fly, offering a floppy wing as we consider called it, which was impressive to watch during pull up from most any speed. Later models were changed to a lesser flap configuration and much stiffer wings.
In comparison, the other most competitive 15 meter ship was the LS3, which was released in 1976, total production numbers were 429. This was a great flying glider but lacked the success of the ASW20.
By comparison The ASW27 was released in 1997 with 237 produced units and the LS6 came along in 1983 with 375 produced units.
Having owned or flown all the mentioned gliders I would say that the ASW20 was the Greatest Of All Time and even today has survived the test of time, very gracefully I might add.
How would you rate the GOAT? Bob
I had two 20's, starting with an early one and then a 20C.
The 20 leaves little to be desired in terms of performance. handling, and ease of use. It also had some very good safety features including
a real wheel brake, energy absorbing gear, and a strong cockpit design. Safety was enhanced in the next generation by the cockpit structure of the '24 that won Waibel may awards and led the industry.
Others I would consider for GOAT:
Ka6 series. Wonderful flying characteristics and very good performance for the time.
SH Discus. Modern glass with excellent handing and performance. A glider that is both suitable for first single seater and good enough to be a glider for a lifetime.
Happy New Year to all
UH
Well, I rest my case, take a look at the OLC for 1-27, as of now the top of the list is an ASW20, 800 KM flown, 786.5 Km triangle. The 20 still can make the leaderboard, that was a very good flight, the triangle, the toughest of all. Bob