Enlisted pilots

Eric,

We agree on all of this.

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled.

I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled.

Exactly. Flying Test or PMH is a bit more demanding than, gee, who wants to
X country backseat to V Beach this weekend. I would rely on the Ops folks.

I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS.

A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report to
me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
his wife did his ribbons.

As for Midlant's claims, I have been in contact the command in question and
will address my findings with him via email so he can decide whether to
share it with the NG seeing he brought it up. The retirement program was
faxed to COMOPTEVFOR and the appropriate people are getting back to me. It
has taken a bit of time as this was not on my priority list, the lack of
desire to embarrass a retired Chief, and the fact I was on leave.

As for the Army, there were many enlisted helo pilots in Viet Nam.

JD

"Eric Scheie" wrote in message
. net...

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
John,

And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices
they
were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.


I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
made that I thought were BS. The best story I've heard along this about
the
young enlisted man who wore a WWII ribbon on his uniform. Obviously the
lad
hadn't even been born during WWII, but when asked, he said it had been his
father's and he had given it to him. We all had to chuckle - the guy made
a
mistake, but I don't think there was any attempt to deceive.


Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even
though
it has been recorded as such.

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.


I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. A few drinks together at the O-club would also
reveal as much, and perhaps more. Sir, I think this thread has got your
ire
up a bit.


As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I
know
civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for
Secial
Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is
a
Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12)
cargo
airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)


The closest thing I can recall to SPECOPS might be the Guard Rail mission
where the C-12 did SIGINT, but I can't see a SEAL being involved with
that.


C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling
your
leg over your head and up somewhere else.

Yeah, I agree. An enlisted SEAL gets "trained as a pilot" and just goes to
the USAF and into a heavy transport? Nope, not going to happen, sorry.

I think this thread has taken on a life of its own. Part of it being the
original poster who I think misunderstood a bit of exaggeration on the
part
of a shipmate, and everyone has been involved in a battle caused by
semanitcs. Case in point - a young enlisted fellow in the last USNR
squadron
I was in loved to mention to me, every time we met (EVERY TIME), the "over
250 hours" he had in the H-2. It still makes me chuckle, and I just didn't
have the heart to tell him that while I was glad he enjoyed sitting in the
troop seat, it really didn't count for anything. Sounds like the SEAL in
question may have had flight training, paid for by the USN, and while he
may
have flown IN Navy aircraft, perhaps even been given some stick (or yoke)
time here and there, he was never a designated Naval Aviator.

Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time,
some
SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with
enough
knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.

To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on
UH-1s
with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots
being
killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his story,
and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or
read
of an instance where this happened.

V/R

Eric Scheie

I earlier wrote:

I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
made that I thought were BS.


Then,

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:7v5Oa.86421$H17.72187@lakeread03...

A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report
to
me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
his wife did his ribbons.


To which I replied,

Sir, to clairfy my statement. While I don't recall running into anyone
wearing wings, or a SWO pin, or a Budweiser, etc. who wasn't qualified,
there were a number of people who wore awards I thought were BS. (That's not
to say there's never been anyone wearing unauthorized warfare insignia.) I
never checked anyone's service record, and their awards may all be well
documented, but what some of them received awards for was just BS. I've seen
others make claims about awards they said they were getting or submitting
themselves for that were BS as well.

A couple of examples:

1. Frigate CO returns from Desert Storm where the ship had spent time in the
NAG. He is soon after sporting a Bronze Star.
2. More than one helo pilot who had been part of ops in the Red Sea during
Desert Shield/Storm returned trying to get air medals. As one told me, "Yup,
I'm getting 4 air medals." Neither received their air medals.

I hope that clarifies my previous statement. We have the same disdain for
someone wearing uniform devices they are not qualified for. I'm sure the
pilot you mentioned was given some...counseling.

I think someone misrepresented themselves a bit to Midlant, and
unfortunately, he's still having his leg pulled today.

V/R

Eric Scheie

A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.

I can't speak for more recent times, but during the late 1960s - early 1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
The class ahead and behind one's own might all get fleet seats, with your
own class only getting two or three - or none at all. There are instances
of entire classes being stashed, especially in the NFO communities.

As best I can determine, this did not hurt (or help) anyone's career path -
it was just the way things were back then. Proof, if any more was needed,
that "needs of the service" are always paramount.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

"Hey, it's a long way to victory over terrorists and we're barely out of the
driveway. So kids, stop asking, 'Are we there yet?'"

- Larry Mazur, Jr.


"Yofuri" wrote in message
...
A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.

[rest snipped]

Thanks! If you're at COTF, say "Hi!" to Don for me (he might even remember me).
I was an instructor at VT-25 in 79 & 80, at COTF 89-92, then COTD at VX-5 92-94,
up to the transition to VX-9.

BTW, do you know which recent Command/Deep Draft Screen list I might have seen
Don's name on ?
----------------------
John R Weiss
www.tsca.net

"Jake Donovan" wrote...
Don is a Capt, Deputy Director of COMOPTEVFOR under RADM Dave Crocker.

"John R Weiss" wrote...

Don Barbaree, a VT-25 plowback around 1979, "done good"! IIRC, I saw his name
on a Command Screen or Flag list a few months ago...

John,

I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.

VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC. (Use
to be the CO of VX9)

JD

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:__jOa.128360$R73.15248@sccrnsc04...
Thanks! If you're at COTF, say "Hi!" to Don for me (he might even
remember me).
I was an instructor at VT-25 in 79 & 80, at COTF 89-92, then COTD at VX-5
92-94,
up to the transition to VX-9.

BTW, do you know which recent Command/Deep Draft Screen list I might have
seen
Don's name on ?
----------------------
John R Weiss
www.tsca.net

"Jake Donovan" wrote...
Don is a Capt, Deputy Director of COMOPTEVFOR under RADM Dave Crocker.

"John R Weiss" wrote...

Don Barbaree, a VT-25 plowback around 1979, "done good"! IIRC, I saw
his name
on a Command Screen or Flag list a few months ago...

Garth VanSickle had VX-5 when I got there, and Scott Ronnie relieved him and was
the first CO of VX-9.

Don't know Craig.

"Jake Donovan" wrote...

I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.

VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC. (Use
to be the CO of VX9)

Capt Barbaree is COMOPTEVFOR Deputy Acting. RADM Crocker retired and a
replacement has not been named.



"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:J2lOa.93027$H17.82960@lakeread03...
John,

I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.

VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC.
(Use
to be the CO of VX9)

That is the normal procedure when the CO retires and a replacement hasn't
been named. I knew Crocker was retiring, I didn't know he already had.
When did he officially retire? I don't get to COMOPTEVFOR very often.

As Bararee isn't an ADM Select (At least he wasn't when I checked the
selection boards) and the command is a RADM Billet, they will be looking for
a replacement.

JD




"Midlant" wrote in message
news:RLoOa.36429$ZE.8034@lakeread05...
Capt Barbaree is COMOPTEVFOR Deputy Acting. RADM Crocker retired and a
replacement has not been named.



"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:J2lOa.93027$H17.82960@lakeread03...
John,

I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.

VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC.
(Use
to be the CO of VX9)

"Mike Kanze" wrote in message ...
A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.

I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.

Mike- I can't speak for more recent times, but during the late 1960s - early
1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
BRBR

Got my wings in June of '74...for many weeks before, all the nuggets were
'plowed back'...During my 'week', there were 25 fleet seats available, only 18
or so nuggets available. They waited until the next week to fill these, with
new nuggets. REALLY peeved the SerGrads..

3 Phantom, some S-3, lots of A-7 and A-4(Bruce Carrier), 3 or 4 A-6, even some
Spad I think.

Right place at the right time.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer