Handicap Distance Tasks

At 22:43 30 January 2016, Andy Blackburn wrote:
It's a very interesting idea. A couple of questions.

What are the implications for leeching and does the handicapping account
for the fact that this likely makes it easier for lower handicap gliders
to
hang back a bit and use higher performance gliders as markers throughout
the task.

In uniform weather this seems fine, but what about tasks where flying
farther requires the higher performance gliders to face blue holes,
thunderstorms, getting off convergence lines and the like.

These were questions that were asked of me when I asked some experienced
pilots about it and I had no experience from which to provide an answer.

9B


Leeching can happen on the legs between turns. The difference this time is
that the slower gliders get equal opportunity. As I fly a 27 I would
normally hang back a bit to gain an advantage by hopping the slower guys.
This tactic does not work in DHTs. The fast and slow gliders get
disconnected at the turns.

No task type is completely fair. Where is the fairness in making a Pegase
fly for 5 hours on a task completed by a JS1 in 3? If the task is well
designed all gliders will turn in the same airspace and airmass conditions.
If there is a hole to cover then the JS1 is more able to do so. In the UK
we set a showery sector when there are storms about.

Jim

At 05:43 31 January 2016, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Scoring seems like a significant issue - presumably you set up a nominal
di=
stance and just score off of raw time no matter what handicapped distance
w=
as flown. I'm guessing Winscore would have trouble with variable task
lengt=
hs with dynamically created waypoints for each task for each pilot, so
you'=
d have to assume people flew their assigned task on an honor system - or
do=
a lot of manual checking. Landouts would also would require manual work.

Unless the software that sets up the task can also read the IGC files and
s=
core the flights?=20

9B

Hi Andy

Scoring is actually easy. For pilots that complete their task, it is just a
matter of comparing times. The same as a single class competition.

For land outs there is a compromise to be made. Fast gliders that land out
near the finish (radiused back) get a small disadvantage but if they land
out early get a small bonus. In DHTs less gliders land out.

The software that I created adds the individual task data into the evidence
so that it can be easily and automatically scored using See You. I see no
reason that other scoring software could not be easily modified to compare
the flight to the task read from the file.

Jim

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 10:45:06 AM UTC-5, Jim White wrote:
I have been following the arguments about Flarm as well as US task setting
with interest. I do not wish to confuse the picture further but I do want
to point out that Handicap Distance Tasks solve many of the complaints
about standard assigned tasks (including leeching).

With HDTs we recognise the glider's handicap in the task, not in the
scoring. This means that every pilot can fly at the same time of day, in
the same air, for roughly the same time on task.

We have been using HDTs successfully in UK rated competition for two
seasons with great pilot feedback. It needs a bit of software for task
setting and if you want to use See You to score them, there is a second bit
of software that prepares the evidence for this.

Following requests from a couple of US clubs, I have put a lot of effort
into modifying this software to be used with the US handicap system, US
Miles, SSA distance calculation rules, and scoring formulae. I would be
delighted if more of you guys gave it a look.

handicaptask.uk or pm me for more information.

Jim

ps: If you want to modify your own scoring software, I can tell you how.

Any USA Regional contest organizer who would like to try this task format should request a waiver from the US Contest Committee. Typically these types of experiments are encouraged, with the requirement that feedback be carefully collected.

The US Rules Committee would use this data as the first step in any consideration of adding it to the extant task types.

John Godfrey (QT), Rules Committee Chair.

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 10:45:06 AM UTC-5, Jim White wrote:
I have been following the arguments about Flarm as well as US task setting
with interest. I do not wish to confuse the picture further but I do want
to point out that Handicap Distance Tasks solve many of the complaints
about standard assigned tasks (including leeching).

With HDTs we recognise the glider's handicap in the task, not in the
scoring. This means that every pilot can fly at the same time of day, in
the same air, for roughly the same time on task.

We have been using HDTs successfully in UK rated competition for two
seasons with great pilot feedback. It needs a bit of software for task
setting and if you want to use See You to score them, there is a second bit
of software that prepares the evidence for this.

Following requests from a couple of US clubs, I have put a lot of effort
into modifying this software to be used with the US handicap system, US
Miles, SSA distance calculation rules, and scoring formulae. I would be
delighted if more of you guys gave it a look.

handicaptask.uk or pm me for more information.

Jim

ps: If you want to modify your own scoring software, I can tell you how.

Additionally, pilots who would like to see this task tried in their regional should lobby their contest organizer.

John Godfrey (QT)

Sounds like it's either honor system scoring or learning SeeYou Competition if you want to validate that no one cut their turnpoint(s) short, plus automate landout scoring, printing of scoresheets etc.

Winscore doesn't support this task type, so there'll be a bit of a learning curve to put one on most places in the US where scorers have been using Winscore.

I am curious, is Truckee using SeeYou for their tasks that follow this format?

9B

The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and proprietary tasks and scoring rules which requires it).

The scoring system for this new task has been handed to us on a silver platter. But again, becuase here in the US we have are own unique EVERYTHING, we can't use this great new task easily.

It's fascinating to watch how many of us, here in the USA, can't see the forest for the trees...

We simply need to stop trying to be different and join the rest of the planet in common soaring rules (and scoring software).

Problem solved! Oh if I could see the grinding teeth and clinched fists all over the land...

But back to US clubs and clubs having fun independently of silly, proprietary, US rules and US scoring software.

Drum roll............................................

Simply use SeeYou!

Ta-da! Close curtain!

Morning tasking chores-
A) Call the task
B) Everyone gets various handicap radiuses to "level" the task! (Another thought is a second later of calculation based on pilot experience...)
C) Go race and have fun!
D) Drop the traces into SeeYou and BOOM, see who won!

A1) Or better yet, start together on a starting line (Grand Prix style) and he/she who returns first is the big winner! Second home, second place...and so on. No need for scoring at all! Just go to the pub and buy he winner a well deserved pint!

All this fun even while racing (set course) gliders of various handicaps (99% of us!).

This would be a fantastic SSA task for regionals. It really makes a lot of sense (custom, relative assigned) and really gives everyone a fair chance of truly competing level against each other (vs wide area tasks) and having fun. It is also very simple, easy to build and easy to manage. Again, congrats to the developers of this innovative task! I am going to try it in the spring with my gang in MI.

Sean Fidler

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:57:30 AM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Sounds like it's either honor system scoring or learning SeeYou Competition if you want to validate that no one cut their turnpoint(s) short, plus automate landout scoring, printing of scoresheets etc.

Winscore doesn't support this task type, so there'll be a bit of a learning curve to put one on most places in the US where scorers have been using Winscore.

I am curious, is Truckee using SeeYou for their tasks that follow this format?

9B

In Truckee in the past we have done these as an out and return typically because of the difficulty in task setting. We have scored them by hand, looking at the flight logs in SeeYou for turnpoint achievement and violations. Also our scoring system is very simple: with a simultaneous start, the first glider back is first, etc. Real racing. 4 races run per year for at least the last 10. One of them is always a 3 lap circuit of 4 turnpoints, with one handicapped so that the gliders are even each lap. Most of the gliders have Flarm, and nobody puts them in stealth.

We are attempting to use Jim White's software this year to set more complex tasks, and will score them with SeeYou.

The Truckee FAI competition, while not tasked this way specifically, is generally flown this way by most participants. Usually everyone starts within a few minutes of gate open, the faster gliders/pilots go further into the AAT while the slower ones graze the cylinder, in order to make minimum times.. Handicaps applied at the end by Winscore. I think it would be more fun doing with handicap distances.

I will further propose sacrilege: regional class competition should also be flown this way. I believe you would get more participation, because a well flown ASW20 would have a chance against an ASG29 or V3.

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:54:29 AM UTC-6, smfidler wrote:
The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and proprietary tasks and scoring rules which requires it).

The scoring system for this new task has been handed to us on a silver platter. But again, becuase here in the US we have are own unique EVERYTHING, we can't use this great new task easily.

It's fascinating to watch how many of us, here in the USA, can't see the forest for the trees...

We simply need to stop trying to be different and join the rest of the planet in common soaring rules (and scoring software).

Problem solved! Oh if I could see the grinding teeth and clinched fists all over the land...

But back to US clubs and clubs having fun independently of silly, proprietary, US rules and US scoring software.

Drum roll............................................

Simply use SeeYou!

Ta-da! Close curtain!

Morning tasking chores-
A) Call the task
B) Everyone gets various handicap radiuses to "level" the task! (Another thought is a second later of calculation based on pilot experience...)
C) Go race and have fun!
D) Drop the traces into SeeYou and BOOM, see who won!

A1) Or better yet, start together on a starting line (Grand Prix style) and he/she who returns first is the big winner! Second home, second place....and so on. No need for scoring at all! Just go to the pub and buy he winner a well deserved pint!

All this fun even while racing (set course) gliders of various handicaps (99% of us!).

This would be a fantastic SSA task for regionals. It really makes a lot of sense (custom, relative assigned) and really gives everyone a fair chance of truly competing level against each other (vs wide area tasks) and having fun. It is also very simple, easy to build and easy to manage. Again, congrats to the developers of this innovative task! I am going to try it in the spring with my gang in MI.

Sean Fidler

At the Chicago Glider Club we started an internal discussion how this task idea can be used for our NISC (Northern IL Soaring Contest). Since we allow anyone from 4 local clubs to participate on any given day during the season, I see some problems with Jim White's ideas:
- A computer-generated task sheet has to be produced for each handicap level after a set of turnpoints has been selected (not possible for different launch sites on the same day). Even at our club, we would have to do some computer prep work, the task cannot easily be changed later on (i.e. in the air)
- Loggers that allow for a task load have to be used, some here use non-certified hand-held loggers.
- Pilots have to properly declare their specific tasks in their loggers. That takes familiarity and experience that some pilots don't have and don't want to acquire.

The basic idea is quite convincing and should be tested in the US environment. I like the concept of flying to narrowly defined turnpoints and the fact that it is not a min. time task. We do already limit start height (4,500') and start and finish radii.
Question to Jim White: do you allow for water ballast and how do you account for those flying ballasted in the final score.
Herb

At 15:54 31 January 2016, smfidler wrote:
The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and
propriet=
ary tasks and scoring rules which requires it). =20

Not quite true Sean. See You uses a script to actually score the task. See
You provides variables to the script such as task distance, speed, handicap
etc. so that the scorer can apply whatever scoring rules he likes within
his script.

Writing a script is simply a matter of taking one of the defaults and
modifying it to meet your needs.

Jim

At 16:59 31 January 2016, wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:54:29 AM UTC-6, smfidler wrote:
The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and
propri=
etary tasks and scoring rules which requires it). =20
=20
The scoring system for this new task has been handed to us on a silver
pl=
atter. But again, becuase here in the US we have are own unique
EVERYTHING=
, we can't use this great new task easily.
=20
It's fascinating to watch how many of us, here in the USA, can't see
the
=
forest for the trees...
=20
We simply need to stop trying to be different and join the rest of the
pl=
anet in common soaring rules (and scoring software).
=20
Problem solved! Oh if I could see the grinding teeth and clinched
fists
=
all over the land...
=20
But back to US clubs and clubs having fun independently of silly,
proprie=
tary, US rules and US scoring software. =20
=20
Drum roll............................................
=20
Simply use SeeYou! =20
=20
Ta-da! Close curtain!
=20
Morning tasking chores-
A) Call the task
B) Everyone gets various handicap radiuses to "level" the task!
(Another=
thought is a second later of calculation based on pilot experience...)
C) Go race and have fun! =20
D) Drop the traces into SeeYou and BOOM, see who won! =20
=20
A1) Or better yet, start together on a starting line (Grand Prix style)
a=
nd he/she who returns first is the big winner! Second home, second
place..=
..and so on. No need for scoring at all! Just go to the pub and buy he
win=
ner a well deserved pint!
=20
All this fun even while racing (set course) gliders of various
handicaps
=
(99% of us!). =20
=20
This would be a fantastic SSA task for regionals. It really makes a
lot
=
of sense (custom, relative assigned) and really gives everyone a fair
chanc=
e of truly competing level against each other (vs wide area tasks) and
havi=
ng fun. It is also very simple, easy to build and easy to manage.
Again,
=
congrats to the developers of this innovative task! I am going to try it
i=
n the spring with my gang in MI.
=20
Sean Fidler

At the Chicago Glider Club we started an internal discussion how this
task
=
idea can be used for our NISC (Northern IL Soaring Contest). Since we
allow=
anyone from 4 local clubs to participate on any given day during the
seaso=
n, I see some problems with Jim White's ideas:
- A computer-generated task sheet has to be produced for each handicap
leve=
l after a set of turnpoints has been selected (not possible for different
l=
aunch sites on the same day). Even at our club, we would have to do some
co=
mputer prep work, the task cannot easily be changed later on (i.e. in the
a=
ir)
- Loggers that allow for a task load have to be used, some here use
non-cer=
tified hand-held loggers.
- Pilots have to properly declare their specific tasks in their loggers.
T=
hat takes familiarity and experience that some pilots don't have and
don't
=
want to acquire.

The basic idea is quite convincing and should be tested in the US
environme=
nt. I like the concept of flying to narrowly defined turnpoints and the
fac=
t that it is not a min. time task. We do already limit start height
(4,500'=
) and start and finish radii.
Question to Jim White: do you allow for water ballast and how do you
accoun=
t for those flying ballasted in the final score.
Herb

Herb, we do not make any changes for ballasted glider as they are allowed
in all our comps using standard handicaps (except club class where ballast
is prohibited for another reason)