How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most.. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

As to "rides" for new people, we usually try and let them do some of the flying while up.
If they do well and the weather is good, then we'll help them get set on final, then put our hands on their shoulders and talk them to a landing. The resulting grin is usually rather large.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

As to "rides" for new people, we usually try and let them do some of the flying while up.
If they do well and the weather is good, then we'll help them get set on final, then put our hands on their shoulders and talk them to a landing. The resulting grin is usually rather large.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Texas Soaring Association has had an active youth program, with attendant youth 'earning' $10/hour credit toward their training for being there and helping. These programs can work very well with oversight.

Frank Whiteley

Great post! The concept of a "catalyst" or "spark plug" is very important. It's also hard to quantify. It sometimes can be under-rated how important these kinds of people can be to local growth in many sports or groups. The kind of person who gives time, knowhow and encouragement and basically does whatever it takes to help others move forward (short of paying their bills).

Perhaps we need to more actively recognize and appreciate these folks wherever they may be at our annual convention. They are probably the glue that holds the sport together right now!

Sean

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 12:18:03 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Great post! The concept of a "catalyst" or "spark plug" is very important. It's also hard to quantify. It sometimes can be under-rated how important these kinds of people can be to local growth in many sports or groups. The kind of person who gives time, knowhow and encouragement and basically does whatever it takes to help others move forward (short of paying their bills).

Perhaps we need to more actively recognize and appreciate these folks wherever they may be at our annual convention. They are probably the glue that holds the sport together right now!

Sean

Not sure whom this was directed to..... but.... I know Hank has been honored before as has Dianne (by SSA).
VSC (as well as HHSC) have been honored in the past for their junior programs as well (by SSA).
In fact, I believe these 2 sites usually via against each other for their junior programs.

You are correct though, ANY site can "help promote the sport"! All it takes is one or more people that see a stranger, walk up and say, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??" Some new people are hesitant to talk to strangers at a strange place (what could be stranger than flying, with some of us that are at the airport??, LOL......)

Sad but true story.....
I used to travel a LOT, I had a free weekend in the SW US. Went to a "local but known site" hoping I could do a flight/share costs for a cross country flight (I know they have great weather compared to the NE US).
I had generic clothes on, but a hat with a Gold "C" & 2 Diamonds pin on the front.
I hung around for a couple hours, helped move some gliders, etc.
Not ONCE did ANYONE come up to me and ask, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??".
I had decided to see what they did as well as see if they picked up on the pin.
Needless to say, I didn't spend any money there...... At least, while it looked decent, overheard conversations were that it was not too good a day, thus I didn't push it.

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 12:49:08 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 12:18:03 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Great post! The concept of a "catalyst" or "spark plug" is very important. It's also hard to quantify. It sometimes can be under-rated how important these kinds of people can be to local growth in many sports or groups.. The kind of person who gives time, knowhow and encouragement and basically does whatever it takes to help others move forward (short of paying their bills).

Perhaps we need to more actively recognize and appreciate these folks wherever they may be at our annual convention. They are probably the glue that holds the sport together right now!

Sean

Not sure whom this was directed to..... but.... I know Hank has been honored before as has Dianne (by SSA).
VSC (as well as HHSC) have been honored in the past for their junior programs as well (by SSA).
In fact, I believe these 2 sites usually via against each other for their junior programs.

You are correct though, ANY site can "help promote the sport"! All it takes is one or more people that see a stranger, walk up and say, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??" Some new people are hesitant to talk to strangers at a strange place (what could be stranger than flying, with some of us that are at the airport??, LOL......)

Sad but true story.....
I used to travel a LOT, I had a free weekend in the SW US. Went to a "local but known site" hoping I could do a flight/share costs for a cross country flight (I know they have great weather compared to the NE US).
I had generic clothes on, but a hat with a Gold "C" & 2 Diamonds pin on the front.
I hung around for a couple hours, helped move some gliders, etc.
Not ONCE did ANYONE come up to me and ask, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??".
I had decided to see what they did as well as see if they picked up on the pin.
Needless to say, I didn't spend any money there...... At least, while it looked decent, overheard conversations were that it was not too good a day, thus I didn't push it.

I do think we sometimes make it more complicated than we need to. There's no silver bullet - it's a lot of hard work by a relatively few people that typically moves the ball forward. I suspect (though I don't have data to prove it) that my local SSA Region (Region 2) does disproportionately well in terms of getting folks into XC. That has to do with basically 2 or 3 locations that really go out of their way to mentor XC pilots, two Regionals (Mifflin and Wurtsboro) that really cater to newcomers, a very active decentralized contest (the Governor's Cup) and a few people who work really hard to push newcomers to "convert".

I don't think equipment is as much of a problem as some folks would like to believe. It would be nice, since it would "just" mean more money.

If I get around to it I'll publish the results of a survey I did two years ago. At least in this region, a surprising number of pilots do go XC, though not that many of them participate in either contests or the OLC.

Erik Mann (P3)

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most.. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

As to "rides" for new people, we usually try and let them do some of the flying while up.
The resulting grin is usually rather large.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Juggling a bunch of things right now, so adding thoughts in dribs-and-drabs.. One of the things that's remarkable to me is the wide variation in the percentage of pilots who go cross country in different clubs from the same area. In Region 2, for example, the largest club with the best (all glass) fleet which owns its own airport and clubhouse has almost no XC activity. With over 100 members, there are maybe a half-dozen who participate in the OLC or contests. On the other hand, two of the smaller operations that share public use airports generate the same or more XC flights with maybe 1/3 the number of pilots. In other words, in the largest club, less than 10% (probably dloser to 5%) participate in XC. In a couple of medium-sized clubs, the percentage is closer to 20%. In Aero Club Albatross (which has a very long history of encouraging XC) we have about 25 pilots actively contributing flights to the OLC with maybe 60 active members. So, at least 40% of the members actively go XC. Many of those flights are in 1-26s and our 1-34.

That tells me that it's more about the environment/operation/culture and less about either great conditions, facilities, or equipment. In ACA, there is a critical mass which I think makes XC culture somewhat self-sustaining. There are dozens of field retrieves every year, so most members are used to it. It's not viewed as a hassle so much as a badge of honor. When you land, the question isn't "how long were you up" so much as "how far did you go"? We try for records, add up OLC points, and go to competitions.

I think what's missing in many clubs is one or two sparkplugs who are willing to commit to changing the culture and encouraging more XC. Think of it as a grass-roots issue rather than a systemic one. We've certainly proven that more people will go XC given a supportive environment. I think it would be very interesting if more clubs measured the "health" of their operation in terms of the percentage of people who actively participate in XC.. It's my hunch that those operations would end up being more stable, active, and vibrant than those with fewer XC pilots.

Erik Mann (P3)

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring European soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At Harris Hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with Roy McMaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with Tim Welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, Harris Hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. Harris Hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

As far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they don't get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every Wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

The formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at Harris Hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. Tim Welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most.. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

************

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Speaking as a pre-solo student with aspirations of doing XC I love the idea of creating at least a couple of levels. I don't know if we'd have enough contestants to fill six at my club, but at least a couple would work.

At our club there are some accomplished XC pilots that are incredibly nice and giving with knowledge. But the idea of 'competing' with them on a task that is designed to be challenging to them is quite intimidating. Of course I wouldn't expect to be at or close the bottom but if I don't have the experience I might not have a good idea as to my (or my planes) limits so the chances of me landing out trying because I thought I could make it would increase a lot.

It would be great to have a task that would challenge me (and other inexperienced XC'ers) without making it too easy for the competent ones. This could be a subset of turn points that make up a larger task. The more experienced groups progressively have more turn points/areas...

just my 0.5c

Dan

At 20:05 17 August 2015, Dan Stroschine wrote:
Speaking as a pre-solo student with aspirations of doing XC I love the
idea=
of creating at least a couple of levels. I don't know if we'd have
enough
=
contestants to fill six at my club, but at least a couple would work.=20

At our club there are some accomplished XC pilots that are incredibly
nice
=
and giving with knowledge. But the idea of 'competing' with them on a
task
=
that is designed to be challenging to them is quite intimidating. Of
course=
I wouldn't expect to be at or close the bottom but if I don't have the
exp=
erience I might not have a good idea as to my (or my planes) limits so
the
=
chances of me landing out trying because I thought I could make it would
in=
crease a lot.=20

It would be great to have a task that would challenge me (and other
inexper=
ienced XC'ers) without making it too easy for the competent ones. This
coul=
d be a subset of turn points that make up a larger task. The more
experienc=
ed groups progressively have more turn points/areas...

just my 0.5c

Dan

This is exactly what handicap distance tasks where designed to, and do,
achieve