IFR GNS 430 with expired database

On Apr 17, 2:39 pm, Peter Clark
wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, wrote:



On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Peter Clark
wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
a current database.

Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
box with a current database. However, if the *missed approach*
requires say, for you to navigate to an NDB for which you are
substituting GPS, that is a terminal operation which only requires
C129(A2) certification and can be flown with an expired database,
provided you have validated the NDB lat/lon.
Earlier in the thread you specified substituting GPS for the MAPH
HP. That is the second situation.

I don't have my supplements or manuals handy, but does that apply even
if the NDB blah is loaded as part of the approach procedure?

Presumably a non-GPS approach - since you can't fly a GPS approach
with an expired database. So, I don't see why it would matter whether
you had the approach loaded or not, since it won't be primary for
navigation until the missed approach segment. (Let's say, for
instance, we are flying the ILS 25R LVK, for which ADF is required
only for the missed approach) Whatever fixes that you loaded for the
miss, however you loaded them, would need to be verified to fly with
an expired database. At the miss you will be going direct to REIGA
NDB, using the GPS to substitute. Whether REIGA was just a "direct-
to" or the last in the string of fixes, which were otherwise unused is
immaterial. You just have to verify nobody moved the NDB.

How do you verify waypoints when your database is expired, do you
compare the coordinates to a current chart?

On Apr 17, 2:56 pm, kevmor wrote:
How do you verify waypoints when your database is expired, do you
compare the coordinates to a current chart?

That would be a reasonable sanity-check in flight. With advance
warning you could grab them out of a database. http://www.airnav.com
is convenient.

\

That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You
can't file /G with an expired database.

Jepp has no say in the matter.

I have been told that you can look at the revision date on a CURRENT
approach plate (or look it up on the Internet). They are given in year, day
of year format at the bottom of the NACO charts. If your database in the
plane is that date or newer, then the database is current for that specific
approach.

If they haven't revised the approach since your database, it has the
appropriate information (for reviewed and date matched approaches only). I
know the AFM supplement is controlling but I think that is what it says in
mine.

Ron A.

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...
There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
really using the database.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
\

That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You
can't file /G with an expired database.

Jepp has no say in the matter.


I didn't say that it was their decision, merely their explanation.

The Pilot in command is the final authority, and bears final
responsibility. It is
one of the few things our government got right.

Al G

Al G wrote:



Jepp has no say in the matter.



I didn't say that it was their decision, merely their explanation.

The Pilot in command is the final authority, and bears final
responsibility.


Well, no. The manufacturer of the GPS will tell you what, if any,
operations you can use your GPS for with an expired database.

Newps wrote:


Al G wrote:



Jepp has no say in the matter.



I didn't say that it was their decision, merely their explanation.

The Pilot in command is the final authority, and bears final
responsibility.


Well, no. The manufacturer of the GPS will tell you what, if any,
operations you can use your GPS for with an expired database.

Actually, the GPS manufacturer will provide suggested wording for the
Approved Flight Manual Supplement, the installer sends it to Oklahoma
City, and the FAA approves it (or not).

Dave

Bob and Jose,

Here is the documentation!
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/kgruber//gfmsp.jpg

Karl
Jose, let me repeat what I have said many times: When you are told
something like this, ask for documentation. There are far too many pilots
who are willing to swallow a story whole without question, and far too
many instructors who simply pass on what they have been told by someone
else.

Bob Gardner

"Dave S" wrote in message
k.net...

You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches
without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the out
of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G, since
you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS approach,
assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR GPS
certification.


Dave

It seems that you just said that you can't legally use the GPS with an
expired database. Using the unit to receive a ground-based navaid such as an
ILS, LOC or VOR doesn't really depend on the database at all - other than
grabbing the frequency to tune.

/G does not just mean that you are capable of flying GPS approaches. "/G -
Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS), including GPS or Wide Area
Augmentation System (WAAS), with en route and terminal capability."

If I had an expired database, I don't think I would file /G. But, I would
accept a direct clearance. If I can find an airport that hasn't moved in 50
years or a FAF, ATC doesn't care how I do it. Of course, if I screw it up,
I'll have some 'splainin to do.
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK