Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 15, 2:54*pm, John Smith wrote:
Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane:

I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.

I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you
can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little
more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training.

Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,
and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail
weights a ton). They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in
the process. We also have a couple of K21s which are great general
purpose gliders, but as basic trainers they are, if anything, too
docile and easy to fly, and won't spin with a normal weight male
student in the front seat. We still use ancient although slightly
updated K13s for most basic training. They do everything tolerably
well, although more performance would be nice.

Derek C

"Derek C" wrote in message
...
snip

Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,
and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail
weights a ton). They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in
the process. We also have a couple of K21s which are great general
purpose gliders, but as basic trainers they are, if anything, too
docile and easy to fly, and won't spin with a normal weight male
student in the front seat. We still use ancient although slightly
updated K13s for most basic training. They do everything tolerably
well, although more performance would be nice.

I had the good fortune to get a bimble to Chievley and back last year in the
turbo one. Ground handling is fine with the tail dolly on, but one of the
dollys was defective so we had to go to the launch point to get the one that
was OK. The tail is no heavier than my glider, and if you sit someone on
the cockpit rail lifting it to get the dolly on is pretty easy.

I agree it's difficult to get into, especially for the short of leg, and
there is the danger of falling into the canopy which of course would
probably do a lot of damage. All that needs is one of those plastic steps.
That high wheel (assuming it doesn't collapse!) must be a great asset for a
field landing if the stuff in the field isn't ideally short.

We didn't spin it, nor did it feel anywhere near spinning at reasonable XC
and thermalling speeds - unless it doesn't have a pre-stall buffet.

Tail weights are IMHO a big improvement over water - for one thing no
problem if it's going to be sub-zero - for another they are quicker to
change than pouring water in or extracting it from a 500/505.

I found the DG1000 was easy to fly and very easy to land - it has massively
powerful airbrakes and wheel brake, there was no problem landing it in a
small area from a position that was really too high and too close.

However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't send
someone for their first solo in it.

On Sep 23, 5:26*pm, Derek C wrote:
Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,

That's why we got two of the fixed undercarriage version. Much much
easier to get in and out, no possibility of wheel up landings, only
very slightly more expensive than an ASK21, and still far better
performance than an ASK21 or Grob. Pretty similar to the 18m Janus we
sold to finance them, but without the flaps, horrid control balance,
or CofG hook.

http://soar.co.nz/dgsmall.JPG

and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail
weights a ton).

The fixed undercarriage version is a lot lighter on the tail. Optimum
CofG sees it essentially balanced on the main wheel, and very light on
either the tail or nose wheel.

We don't faf about with the weights much. Most of the time we have 4
or 5 kg in the tail and just leave them there, giving a similar
cockpit load range to any other glider. But the option is there if you
want it and we certainly do it if there's going to be an extra large
or small person in the front.

They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process.

Sure, but it's not as if it's without a lot of warning! I've done
plenty of time in small and bumpy thermals in ours and never had any
problem. You're very clearly into inefficient mushing and buffeting
long before there's a wing drop.

On Sep 23, 6:15*pm, "Surfer!" wrote:
However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't send
someone for their first solo in it.

We've sent a number of people on first solos in our DG1000s in the 3
1/2 years in which they've been our only training aircraft!

One of them (at least) even did a fair bit of her training in a
borrowed Blanik for a few months after we'd sold the Grobs and the
DG1000's hadn't arrived yet.

Originally Posted by Surfer![_2_]

"Derek C" wrote in message
...
snip[color=blue][i]

Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,
and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail
weights a ton).

I found the DG1000 was easy to fly and very easy to land - it has massively
powerful airbrakes and wheel brake, there was no problem landing it in a
small area from a position that was really too high and too close.

However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't send
someone for their first solo in it.

I knew a couple of ladies who both did all their ab initio training and first/early solo flying in a Janus A. How does it compare to the DG1000 for ease of flying? I have some Janus time but none in the DG

Colin

"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message
...
On Sep 23, 6:15 pm, "Surfer!" wrote:
However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't
send
someone for their first solo in it.

We've sent a number of people on first solos in our DG1000s in the 3
1/2 years in which they've been our only training aircraft!

If they are your only training aircraft you don't have much choice! I
gather from your later post these are the club version with fixed u/c rather
than the version that Lasham have.



One of them (at least) even did a fair bit of her training in a
borrowed Blanik for a few months after we'd sold the Grobs and the
DG1000's hadn't arrived yet.

Surfer! wrote:
We didn't spin it, nor did it feel anywhere near spinning at reasonable
XC and thermalling speeds - unless it doesn't have a pre-stall buffet.

It doesn't buffet, it just gets mushy on the controls. But it doesn't
drop a wing by itself unless you stomp the rudder. However if you do,
then it does spin.

Tail weights are IMHO a big improvement over water - for one thing no

You don't need to add any tail ballast for instruction. Adding proper
ballast does improve the handling, but it isn't needed. Personally, I
think it's a fine idea to show the students right from day one that
there is such a thing as a CofG with which you can tinker.

there was no problem landing it in a small area from a position
that was really too high and too close.

One could even argue that it has too powerful airbrakes for primary
instruction. Learning in a DG1000 spoils you for the Duo...

as you wouldn't send someone for their first solo in it.

Why not?

On Sep 23, 8:24*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sep 23, 5:26*pm, Derek C wrote:

Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,

That's why we got two of the fixed undercarriage version. *Much much
easier to get in and out, no possibility of wheel up landings, only
very slightly more expensive than an ASK21, and still far better
performance than an ASK21 or Grob. *Pretty similar to the 18m Janus we
sold to finance them, but without the flaps, horrid control balance,
or CofG hook.

http://soar.co.nz/dgsmall.JPG

and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail
weights a ton).

The fixed undercarriage version is a lot lighter on the tail. Optimum
CofG sees it essentially balanced on the main wheel, and very light on
either the tail or nose wheel.

We don't faf about with the weights much. Most of the time we have 4
or 5 kg in the tail and just leave them there, giving a similar
cockpit load range to any other glider. But the option is there if you
want it and we certainly do it if there's going to be an extra large
or small person in the front.

They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process.

Sure, but it's not as if it's without a lot of warning! *I've done
plenty of *time in small and bumpy thermals in ours and never had any
problem. You're very clearly into inefficient mushing and buffeting
long before there's a wing drop.

The three wheeler version also has issues, including much longer take
off and landing runs (due to the small angle of incidence of the wing
to the fuselage) and the possibility of tail damage from snatched
winch launches slamming the tail wheel onto the ground. The DG1000 is
lovely to fly and is very docile right down to the stall, at which
point it can drop a wing and depart into a spin without much warning.
The spin can go flat and take some time to recover. It is not a glider
you would want to deliberately spin much below 3000ft.

People with very short or very long arms have problems operating the
retractable undercarriage. It is difficult to lock down and we have
had numerous undercarriage collapses on touchdown when pilots have
failed to do so properly. There is no obvious detent to ensure that
the U/C is locked down. The latest versions have an electrically
operated retractable undercarriage,which says it all!

On the plus side it has very powerful airbrakes and K13 trained pilots
have no difficulty (apart from the U/C) in converting to it, unlike
our Duo Discus which tends to run away with them on approach.

Derek C

The ASK 13 is probably the best and simplest glider to operate effectively
as a twoseat trainer. not necassarily the best for prepping pilots to fly
slippery glass single seaters. However it does exactly what it says on the
tin and if, you can fly a K13 well and accurately then you can prpobably
fly most other gliders too that the potential pilot will progress to
next.


At 22:23 23 September 2010, Derek C wrote:
On Sep 23, 8:24=A0am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sep 23, 5:26=A0pm, Derek C wrote:

Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,

That's why we got two of the fixed undercarriage version. =A0Much
much
easier to get in and out, no possibility of wheel up landings, only
very slightly more expensive than an ASK21, and still far better
performance than an ASK21 or Grob. =A0Pretty similar to the 18m Janus
we
sold to finance them, but without the flaps, horrid control balance,
or CofG hook.

http://soar.co.nz/dgsmall.JPG

and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the
tail
weights a ton).

The fixed undercarriage version is a lot lighter on the tail. Optimum
CofG sees it essentially balanced on the main wheel, and very light on
either the tail or nose wheel.

We don't faf about with the weights much. Most of the time we have 4
or 5 kg in the tail and just leave them there, giving a similar
cockpit load range to any other glider. But the option is there if you
want it and we certainly do it if there's going to be an extra large
or small person in the front.

They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process.

Sure, but it's not as if it's without a lot of warning! =A0I've
done
plenty of =A0time in small and bumpy thermals in ours and never had
any
problem. You're very clearly into inefficient mushing and buffeting
long before there's a wing drop.

The three wheeler version also has issues, including much longer take
off and landing runs (due to the small angle of incidence of the wing
to the fuselage) and the possibility of tail damage from snatched
winch launches slamming the tail wheel onto the ground. The DG1000 is
lovely to fly and is very docile right down to the stall, at which
point it can drop a wing and depart into a spin without much warning.
The spin can go flat and take some time to recover. It is not a glider
you would want to deliberately spin much below 3000ft.

People with very short or very long arms have problems operating the
retractable undercarriage. It is difficult to lock down and we have
had numerous undercarriage collapses on touchdown when pilots have
failed to do so properly. There is no obvious detent to ensure that
the U/C is locked down. The latest versions have an electrically
operated retractable undercarriage,which says it all!

On the plus side it has very powerful airbrakes and K13 trained pilots
have no difficulty (apart from the U/C) in converting to it, unlike
our Duo Discus which tends to run away with them on approach.

Derek C

In article ,
Jon Arnold wrote:

The ASK 13 is probably the best and simplest glider to operate effectively
as a twoseat trainer. not necassarily the best for prepping pilots to fly
slippery glass single seaters. However it does exactly what it says on the
tin and if, you can fly a K13 well and accurately then you can prpobably
fly most other gliders too that the potential pilot will progress to
next.



About the only thing keeping the ASK-7 and -13's from being the best
trainers for the money is that their cockpits were not designed for the
"modern" physique.