Flaps on take-off and landing

Full-stall slow flight. That's an interesting term; you really mean
partially stalled, right?

Tell you the truth I don't know how much of the airflow had separated
from the wing, but I was pulling up as hard as I could on the yoke, and
the airplane was shuddering and struggling to stay aloft (and sinking).
The nose was bobbing, so it's as full as I could get, steady state.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Mxsmanic" ... wrote in message
...
In simulation it seems that flying slow with flaps extended makes the
aircraft more prone to exaggerated movement for a specific control
input, especially in larger aircraft. Is an aircraft inherently less
stable at slow speeds with flaps extended? If so, is it just because
the flaps are out, or is it the slow speed that does it?

Hm... Slow flight is accompanied by soft-feeling controls and less control
authority (i.e. you have to put in more input to get the aircraft to
respond, not less). By the same token, you have to put in more control to
stop the plane from rolling (or whatever) once started, so that might be
what is giving you that impression. Dunno.

When flying around a city for fun at low altitudes (2000-3000 feet), I
often fly with full flaps and throttles near idle. It makes it easier
to go slow and enjoy the view, but I also get the impression that the
envelope of safe maneuvering is smaller in this configuration. But I
don't know if it's the flaps that do that, or the slow speed, or
perhaps both.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'envelope of safe maneuvering.' You
can't go as fast with flaps extended, because something might break, but you
can fly slower, because of the additional lift.

When I first tried simulation (many years ago now), I was surprised by
the drag effect of flaps. I had read about it but I didn't realize it
was so significant. I finally understood why I had heard commercial
pilots increasing engine speed while approaching a runway on landing.
I find myself doing the same thing, to maintain altitude mainly, and
also because it seems to improve flight characteristics if one flies
with more power (?), as opposed to just gliding in at the slowest
possible speed.

I'll have to take your word for it -- I've never flown a big airplane, real
or simulated. In smaller airplanes where the propwash flows over the control
surfaces, your elevator and rudder are more responsive at higher RPMs.

Tom Young

The application of the rule has required a positive detent
to limit the flap position.



"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
| In article SwnOg.22694$SZ3.9372@dukeread04,
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote:
|
| Every airplane with flaps has speed limits with flaps
| extended. If there is a positive stop, they may have a
| series of allowable speeds.
|
| Why do you say "positive stop"? I think you're talking
about:
|
| 23.1511 Flap extended speed.
|
| (a) The flap extended speed VFE must be established so
that it is
|
| (1) Not less than the minimum value of VF allowed in
23.345(b); and
|
| (2) Not more than VF established under 23.345(a), (c), and
(d).
|
| (b) Additional combinations of flap setting, airspeed, and
engine power
| may be established if the structure has been proven for
the corresponding
| design conditions.
|
| I don't see anything there that mandates a "positive
stop".

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Margy Natalie writes:

Who said the handle is small? Some of these "handles" are 2 - 3 feet
long.

Where are they in the cockpit? I haven't seen many small cockpits; is
there a picture on the Net of one that has this kind of lever? It
sounds like it would be awkward to use in flight.

I go by what I've seen in the handful of pictures of cockpits that
I've encountered. Most of these are of jet aircraft, and the flap
lever is longer than most but hardly long enough to provide much
leverage.


In the StingSport LSA it's right where you would expect to find your
Toyota parking brake handle... in fact, it looks suspiciously like a
Toyota parking brake handle... grin

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Nope.

As long as you are flying in the green arc, the wing alone will ALWAYS give
you better lift.


Karl
"Curator" N185KG
screw bottom feeders


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:2njOg.22663$SZ3.21477@dukeread04...
Flap extension does cause an immediate (manual flaps)
increase in lift, rotating the aircraft also increases lift
but the flaps seem to work better in the case of just
"jumping" a few feet because they also lower the stall speed
giving a slightly greater margin at the same energy level.

Try it. It is not a long term effect, just a quick change
to get over the short fence or narrow ditch.


"karl gruber" wrote in message
...
| Nope.
|
| As long as you are flying in the green arc, the wing alone
will ALWAYS give
| you better lift.
|
|
| Karl
| "Curator" N185KG
| screw bottom feeders
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:2njOg.22663$SZ3.21477@dukeread04...
| Flap extension does cause an immediate (manual flaps)
| increase in lift, rotating the aircraft also increases
lift
| but the flaps seem to work better in the case of just
| "jumping" a few feet because they also lower the stall
speed
| giving a slightly greater margin at the same energy
level.
|
|
|

Mxsmanic wrote:


I don't know if such devices are available for commodity simulators
like MSFS; there is no fundamental technical obstacle to employing
them, and perhaps someone out there is building them.


Head tracking equipment for the PC that works in MSFS and many other
programs do exist. With out it flight simulators are extremely boring
to me. You really need to look into them, they increase the level of
realism by an order of magnitude. The one I have is called TrackIR.
I'm sure there are others out there, but I don't know what they are.
The TrackIR works by using an inferred camera that you put over your
monitor and point it at your head. The low end version that I use comes
with a set of silver stickers that the inferred camera picks up really
well and tracks. You just stick them on a hat and go. Then it
exaggerates your head movements in the game, so say 10 degrees of
movement of your real head translates to 120 degrees of movement for the
game head. The first 3 or 4 times you use it, you will probably get a
head ache, but after you get used to it, the head aches stop. By the
way, the 10 to 120 degree numbers were just made up, the real ratio is
configurable with a little utility that shows your head on one side and
the game head on the other side so you can see what how much it moves.
They have a higher end version that not only tracks which way your head
is pointing but it also tracks movement from side to side, forward and
backward up and down and side to side tilt (think roll here). The basic
version just does pitch and yaw, which does work well. A friend has the
more advanced version and tells me he has to turn off the roll feature
because it becomes to disorienting while flying, but he does like using
the full functionality in the Nascar simulator.


--
Chris W
KE5GIX

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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
Are you aware that you are discussing this with one of the programmers
who wrote MS Flight Simulator?

Oh, who? The original version or one of the more recent ones? I remember
somewhere around v1 there was this "feature" that if you went inverted and
"dove" towards the sky, you had a *very* good climb rate and speed... Great
"feature" during the dogfight scenario since you could thereby climb
considerably faster than all the other aircraft that were trying to shoot
you down...

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx)
on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above
stall speed.

Kind of depends upon the aircraft, doesn't it? Some aircraft stall so
benignly that you could probably just descend vertically in the stall and
then recover at some point before you become one with the ground... grin

I seem to remember a 150 or 152 at one time that when I was flying it solo
and practicing stalls, even with full back yoke and throttle at idle, I
couldn't get a noticeable break... Yeah, the descent rate increased, but it
was very stable in the descent... After awhile, I got bored and just told
myself, "yeah, I guess we can call that a stall"...

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Your stall speed is reduced by the flaps by maybe 10 or 20 knots. If
the wind is blowing enough for your stall speed to be a factor - don't
fly.

Maybe in *your* plane, but *my* plane only gets a 2-3 kt decrease in stall
speed... Not worth the trouble unless you need to drop into a really short
field with trees or a power line at the approach end of it...