Flaps on take-off and landing

Mxsmanic wrote:

Do aircraft commonly have mechanisms to prevent gear retraction when
the wheels are touching ground, or is it usually up to the pilot not
to do anything unwise?

Some do, but it's best not to rely on it. Getting a good bounce
on rollout can sometimes release the pressure on the switch enough to
get the gear to stop.

On the Navion there is NOTHING to stop this. If the handle is up and
the crakshaft is turning the gear is coming up. It's all hydraulic.
Even the starter motor is enough to get the hydraulic pump to start
the nose gear retracting. I have seen exactly one Navion with a
mechanical interlock that keeps you from moving the handle while the
airplane is on the squat switch.


I was under the impression that full flaps is a normal configuration
for landing; is this not true?

Then why would you you have them? The FAA believes that FULL FLAPS
should always be used for landings (not one that I believe in).

Interesting that no one mentioned airport elevation re; use of flaps on
takeoff. Or we only talking simulators here? Know of one instance where a
PT-19 ended up in a cornfield using full flaps from an elevated airport in
W. Va. Some small craft, such as a Cessna 150, can barely maintain level
flight with full flaps at our local - 1200'.

Jim Macklin wrote:
Johnson Bar


You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch
that you see at the last moment before a forced landing if
they are up for the glide.

If you have ones that react fast. I loved the "johnson-bar"
flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric flapped
172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The Navion
hydraulic flaps are even slower.

Ron Natalie wrote:

BULL****. 20G33 was good student solo weather in Colorado where I
learned. We regularly took the Cardinal RG's out in these conditions.

It was my interpretation of Tom's post that the Cardinal will not fly
*prematurely* when taxiing in those wind conditions.

--
Peter

birdog wrote:
Interesting that no one mentioned airport elevation re; use of flaps on
takeoff. Or we only talking simulators here? Know of one instance where a
PT-19 ended up in a cornfield using full flaps from an elevated airport in
W. Va. Some small craft, such as a Cessna 150, can barely maintain level
flight with full flaps at our local - 1200'.


I can tell you the Navion is pretty bizarre with full flaps on takeoff.
I made that mistake once. She breaks ground very fast but she won't
climb out worth crap.

This is actually not uncommon. In some planes it's a crapshoot as
to whether flaps help the short field performance. The 172 for instance
breaks ground quicker, but climbs slower to the 50' obstacle so it's
a wash. If you've got one of the old johnson-bar manual flap version
your optimal performance is to start the roll with the flaps up, drop
them to 10 degrees to break ground and once you get to Vx raise them back
up again.

A friend of mine was a pilot for the State of Illinois.
They were flying the governor to Washington, DC in the King
Air [about 20 years ago]. Somewhere near Cleveland [I
think] they saw a flicker and then had a DC 9 at their
altitude pass right to left a few hundred feet in front.
Turned out the sector controller had forgotten to issue the
higher altitude to the DC 9. The Governor did get a
personal phone call from the Sec DOT ad the Admin at the FAA
with an apology.

The form the pilot filled out had this question, "What the
PICs first action after the near mid-air?"

The pilot wrote down, "Changed shorts"




"Stubby" wrote in
message . ..
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| ...
| You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or
ditch
| that you see at the last moment before a forced landing
if
| they are up for the glide.
| ...
| Yes and that's one lesson I'll never forget. The
instructor had me do a
| power-off "short approach" and told me I was *not* allowed
to apply
| power no matter how bad I thought it was! The pucker
factor increased
| enormously and I could see the edge of the hill under the
runway
| looming. Certain that we were going to crash into it, I
was begging to
| add power. The instructor calmly demonstrated how to use
flaps just to
| get a few more feet and complete the landing. It was a
good lesson but
| I think he owes me some new underwear.

Gliding with the flaps up and about 5 knots faster than
"best glide" allows the pilot to "stretch" the glide by a
slight increase in pitch attitude bringing the speed to the
best glide speed. If you fly at best glide you have no
option to stretch the glide since any increase of decrease
in speed will steepen the glide.

Also, if there is any wind, you want minimum sink if flying
downwind and you need a faster speed when flying into the
wind. Extreme example, wind 50 knots, airspeed 50 knots,
flight path vertical with no forward progress.

Flap extension reduces the stalling speed, often only a few
knots, but lift increases as does drag. The airplane will
balloon and slow very fast, the extra distance and altitude
gained is only a few feet, but if all you need is to clear a
5 foot cattle fence or a 10 foot wide ditch, that is a
technique that is useful.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 122...
| Stubby wrote
| The instructor calmly demonstrated how to use flaps just
to
| get a few more feet and complete the landing. It was a
good
| lesson but I think he owes me some new underwear.
|
| Best glide distance with flaps is always less that best
glide
| distance flaps up. Bad demonstration...bad lesson learned.
| The reason that most GA airplanes use flaps is to increase
| drag and steepen the glide angle without increasing the
speed.
|
| Bob Moore

And a Playboy magazine is safer than sex.



"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
| Margy Natalie writes:
|
| My primary flight instructor had a great saying "Do
whatever it takes".
| If you are flying into a short field with minimal wind
full flaps
| would make sense. If you are flying into a long,
high-speed runway
| (like Dulles or something) a no flap landing can be
used.
|
| Is there a reason why you'd want to land with no flaps?
|
| I have a great idea, why don't you get a few hours in a
"real" airplane.
|
| Too expensive and too time-consuming. And I seriously
doubt that I
| would learn much of anything useful in just a few hours.
If I had
| time and money, I'd much prefer to spend it in certified
full-motion
| simulators, which would give me essentially all the
experience of real
| flight with zero risk and maximum flexibility and
enjoyment.
|
| --
| Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I'm not sure about the Navion, but many hydraulic retraction
systems have a valve that blocks fluid flow unless the strut
is compressed.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Mxsmanic wrote:
|
| Do aircraft commonly have mechanisms to prevent gear
retraction when
| the wheels are touching ground, or is it usually up to
the pilot not
| to do anything unwise?
|
| Some do, but it's best not to rely on it. Getting a good
bounce
| on rollout can sometimes release the pressure on the
switch enough to
| get the gear to stop.
|
| On the Navion there is NOTHING to stop this. If the
handle is up and
| the crakshaft is turning the gear is coming up. It's all
hydraulic.
| Even the starter motor is enough to get the hydraulic pump
to start
| the nose gear retracting. I have seen exactly one Navion
with a
| mechanical interlock that keeps you from moving the handle
while the
| airplane is on the squat switch.
|
|
| I was under the impression that full flaps is a normal
configuration
| for landing; is this not true?
|
| Then why would you you have them? The FAA believes that
FULL FLAPS
| should always be used for landings (not one that I believe
in).

True, different airplanes have different characteristics.
The early Helio Couriers had two hand cranks on the ceiling
on a concentric shaft. The small handle was for trim and
the longer handle was for the flaps. The Helio could
take-off with the full span flaps [just a very few feet lost
to ailerons, spoilers being primary roll control]. Helio
even had instructions in their flight manual for the H295 on
how to take-off when the mud was over the top of the tires
[ a real soft field]. Full flaps, full throttle and pump
the elevator full forward and aft would cause the airplane
to climb out of the mud and then take-off.

On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as two
airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to the
assembly building. They would land and take-off day in and
out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO
floats.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Johnson Bar
|
|
| You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or
ditch
| that you see at the last moment before a forced landing
if
| they are up for the glide.
|
| If you have ones that react fast. I loved the
"johnson-bar"
| flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric
flapped
| 172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The
Navion
| hydraulic flaps are even slower.
|