Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:47:14 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote in :

Larry Dighera writes:

Above 18,000' is Class A airspace. It's also called positive control
airspace; you won't get a "resume own navigation" instruction in Class
A airspace.

You can request lower from ATC, but until you are given a new
altitude, you must maintain that for which you are cleared.

OK. Does that apply to lateral navigation as well? Nobody seems to
object when I let the FMC follow the lateral course as filed (at least
during the en route phase of the flight).

Please consider doing your own research:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION- Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume
his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after
completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while
the aircraft is being radar vectored.

In a previous article, Mxsmanic said:
if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude.

Ah ... is there another phrase that also means altitude is at my
discretion, or is altitude always under the control of ATC? The fact
that the FMC provides for its own descent schedule implies that there
must be situations in IFR where I'm allowed to climb or descend at my
discretion (?).

If your FMC wants to descend, ask ATC for a descent. If you're going to
be descending with multiple segments of different descent rates, ask ATC
for "descent at pilots discretion".

Real world IFR flying is about coordinating your actions with those of all
the other planes out there, not flying along fat, dumb and happy doing
whatever you feel like. That's the whole point of ATC - to make sure you
don't hit what you can't see. ATC's second priority is to make sure the
system runs smoothly, so your actions don't interfere with somebody else
and somebody else's actions don't interfere with you.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"I love the smell of burning components in the morning.
Smells like victory." (The ******* Operator From Hell)

Thomas Borchert writes:

And who would, in a simulation?

Air traffic controllers.

All the times I have played FS in a multiplayer environment, the guys
simulating ATC really had no clue at all about how it is done in real
life.

Did you give them the benefit of your superior knowledge? Which
networks did you use?

They still made a big deal about following the rules they
themselves didn't understand, though.

I hope you set them straight.

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Larry Dighera writes:

OK. Does that apply to lateral navigation as well? Nobody seems to
object when I let the FMC follow the lateral course as filed (at least
during the en route phase of the flight).

Please consider doing your own research:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION- Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume
his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after
completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while
the aircraft is being radar vectored.

I don't see an answer to my question in that paragraph.

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Thomas Borchert writes:

That fact implies that the simulation does not simulate real life
well in this respect.

What part of the FMC or ATC simulation is incorrect?

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Paul Tomblin writes:

If your FMC wants to descend, ask ATC for a descent. If you're going to
be descending with multiple segments of different descent rates, ask ATC
for "descent at pilots discretion".

OK, thanks. Is that the procedure followed by pilots in the real
world as well?

Real world IFR flying is about coordinating your actions with those of all
the other planes out there, not flying along fat, dumb and happy doing
whatever you feel like.

Yes. That's why I'm trying to find out what the rules are.

That's the whole point of ATC - to make sure you
don't hit what you can't see. ATC's second priority is to make sure the
system runs smoothly, so your actions don't interfere with somebody else
and somebody else's actions don't interfere with you.

Yes. I try to be cooperative with ATC.

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Thomas Borchert writes:

No, you don't.

I did so last night. Today, at least thus far, it was Chandler to
Sedona, and then back from Sedona to Phoenix.

For the sake of those reading here that haven't
discovered your background, please state clearly that you are playing
MS FS.

Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things
like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from
real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both. In
domains where I suspect there may be a discrepancy, I ask for
clarification, which is why I'm here.

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Mxsmanic,

Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things
like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from
real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both.


Jeeze, not always the same again.

Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real
world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences
between sim and RL is complete, utter BS). Thus, if you really want
people to react in a sensible way, you need to provide the context,
which is simming. If you don't, people won't understand your post in the
least bit.

Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several
times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in
sensible reactions. That's why people conclude you're a troll, not
someone asking for clarification.

--

Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

And who would, in a simulation?

Air traffic controllers.


Then that would be a very bad simulation. Ah, more and more differences
to real life...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert writes:

Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real
world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences
between sim and RL is complete, utter BS).

Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world?

As I recall, I started at gate 35 at KLAX, was cleared to KLAS with
LOOP4 DAG KEPEC1 at FL290, left on 24L (which is right behind the
gate), and proceeded more or less uneventually to KLAS, with a few
minor modifications to my route from ATC along the way. I did have to
fight with the autopilot and FMS on the way in to KLAS, but only
because I'm not that experienced with them yet. I'm getting better.
In particular, I'm slowly figuring out how to change things en route
so that I can adapt to instructions from ATC, instead of being
compelled to let the FMS fly the entire route as originally entered.
As I get used to it, I like the FMS more than I did at first.

Thus, if you really want people to react in a sensible way, you need
to provide the context, which is simming.

Which part of the above doesn't happen in real life?

If you don't, people won't understand your post in the least bit.

They seem to have understood it without any difficulty.

Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several
times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in
sensible reactions.

No. Another, more probable possibility is that it's not a problem to
begin with, except in your own perception, which is not universal.

That's why people conclude you're a troll, not someone asking
for clarification.

Virtually no one has reached this conclusion, apart from a vocal
minority that finds me irritating. It's unfortunate that I end up
explaining this to that minority in almost every thread in which I
participate. If they would just stick to the topic, things would go
much better for all.

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