If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Differences in Italian vs US soaring instruction?
Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and
Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know. So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it in the US. I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and have had no luck at all. Michael |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Hello Michael,
I am not familiar with the Italian procedures, I live and fly in Denmark. -But as a fellow instructor, I find it very reassuring and positive that you take this approach to your instructing. -I have met others that just fall into the habit of concluding that any "foreign" instruction and procedures are simply inferior.. I have flown in quite a few countries around the Globe, including the USA. -And yes, the procedures are different. Flying basics are the same, off course, but it is the little things that gets you. E.g.. waggle the rudder means "go" in the US as I remember it. -Found out when I checked the control surfaces at the runway at Minden one day some years ago ;-) It would certainly be helpful (and maybe even save a life or two) if there was some kind of central database on the web where one could look up a summary of the procedures used in various countries. Is this something that the SSA could do in the US? What about the IGC? -the FAI? It seems like an obvious task for the international, as well as the larger national organizations. Happy soaring, Lars Peder "Michael" wrote in message om... Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know. So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it in the US. I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and have had no luck at all. Michael |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be
accurate. "Michael" wrote in message om... Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know. So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it in the US. I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and have had no luck at all. Michael |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
PTS? isn't that another TLA?
"Basil Fairston" wrote in message ... PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be accurate. "Michael" wrote in message om... Can anyone who is familiar with soaring instruction in the US and Italy comment on the differences? I ask because I have started training a 'student' - actually an Italian licensed glider pilot - who wants to add US glider ratings to his US commercial and CFI certificates. His flying is generally very good, but I have already noticed that there are things he is not familiar with that any US glider pilot with a hundred flights would certainly know. So far, I've noticed that there are certain wing runner signals he is not familiar with - I assume this is because Italian procedures differ from those in the US. He also has obviously had no instruction in formal glider XC planning (as opposed to actually flying XC - this he has done) and has never heard of the PTS accuracy landing as we do it in the US. I would appreciate as much information on the differences between the US and Italian systems of instruction as possible, mainly so that I can identify the likely problem areas and make sure we cover them in depth. I've tried to find the Italian equivalent of a glider PTS, and have had no luck at all. Michael |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Stephen Thomas wrote:
PTS? isn't that another TLA? Now what the hell is TLA?? And please don't answer with yet another obscure acronym. To the original questions: I don't know the Italian habits either, but I know one thing: Never, never assume any habits as granted. Eg. at my airfield there are two soaring clubs, and even the procedures of these two clubs differ substantially. (Such as, when winch launching, whose responibility is it to observe final (wing hoder vs start observer), who does the radio with the winch driver (start observer vs. pilot) etc.) Then, nobody here around considers rudder waggling to be any signal at all. Everybody waggles with all control surfaces and with the airbrakes just as a prestart check. (All our gliders are radio equipped, something thing that *we* take as granted.) The big problem is, you can't just ask people what their habits are, because they are so used to them that they are no longer aware that these are habits. Formal cross country preparation? I have no idea what you mean by this. Usually I have a rough plan, go up and then fly this plan or change it according to weather situation and mood. My only "plan" is to always stay within gliding range of a landeable field. PTS landing? Whatever this may be, a landing is considered correct if the glider is smoothly put down within the first 60 meters of the runway. No, we have no name for this. Bottom line: I would recommend that you just go through the whole routine with a foreign pilot. Encourage him to comment your procedures, whether they meet what he has done or whether they differ or whether they are entirely new to him or whether he misses something. Like this, you both will learn something. Stefan |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be accurate. Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with only a mere 130+ hours. Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future. The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so. Gail |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Gail, There is actually no prescribed direction to turn at release of tow in the UK. You can turn either way, and I do. However, most people do assume that it is 'Turn left off tow' What kind of nasty accident do you imagine might happen if you turn left instead of right or vice versa? At 15:06 16 July 2003, Gail wrote: PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be accurate. Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with only a mere 130+ hours. Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future. The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so. Gail |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Gail,
There is actually no prescribed way to turn at release of tow in the UK. You can turn either way, and I regularly do. Sometimes there can be cloud to the left and also when I'm being towed into an aerobatic box I will very often turn right depending on my desired positioning. It is generally accepted however that most people turn left. Give a climbing right turn a go next time and see which way the tuggie turns! Usually they are pretty good and turn the opposite way it's only when they are flying on mental autopilot that they instinctively turn right. with a glider in a climbing right turn and tug in a descending right turn there should still be no conflict. So no nasty accidents. At 15:06 16 July 2003, Gail wrote: PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be accurate. Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with only a mere 130+ hours. Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future. The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so. Gail |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
"Basil Fairston" wrote
PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be accurate. Since I started this mess, I'll try to answer some of the questions. While I've replied to this message in particular, I've included the points raised in others. PTS means practical test standards, which are detailed descriptions of what is covered on a checkride. http://av-info.faa.gov/ is a web site that contains them. It includes a description of an accuracy landing. If you've not flown in the US, I assure you it's not what you think it is. In this situation (training a pilot who is already proficient towards a rating) many maneuvers will only be performed once or twice. There is no real syllabus for this kind of training, and relatively few flights are required. It's not a big deal if I were training a US-trained glider pilot towards the commercial and CFI, because he would have absorbed normal operating practices and habits while training towards the private. In this case, I am training an Italian-trained pilot, who has absorbed DIFFERENT normal operating practices and habits. I have already noticed some that are safety-critical, including the rudder waggle that is used by the glider pilot to signal the start of tow in the US. It is not reasonable to have him repeat the entire private syllabus, and suggesting this certainly implies that the foreign training is somehow inferior. Formal XC planning is a normal staple of instruction in the US. Briefly, in the US glider XC is taught as a series of airport-to-airport hops, such that an outlanding will most likely be at an airport. I know many US-trained glider pilots who are active in XC flying and have never landed anywhere other than an airport, because they use this method. I use this method myself - I have limited experience in off-airport operations (all power) and recognize their unavoidable hazards; I am thus not very interested in hearing that this is unnecessary. The planning is done by assuming a reduced glide ratio (typically half of what is published) and drawing segments between airports. Winds aloft data and polar information are then used to determine minimum altitudes for going ahead at any given point, as well as predicted groundspeeds and crosswind correction angles. The method is not perfect (once I nearly had to land off airport due to some strong unexpected sink) but it does reduce the probability of an off-airport landing with the consequent hazards of unknown field conditions and obstacles that are not seen until too late. The formal XC planning process is a transitional stage; with experience a pilot learns to judge go-ahead points by eye. However, I believe it is a useful method that formalizes the many factors involved and allows a low time glider pilot to venture out with a measure of confidence. It is certainly unacceptable for any glider instructor in the US to be unfamiliar with this process, since it is the norm here. In the US, we turn right and climb on release. Italy seems to do the same. I understand that some countries do otherwise. Obviously either way is fine, as long as both glider and tow pilot are on the same page. Michael |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:38:07 +0100, "Gail"
wrote: PTS accuracy landing, whats that. In UK all landings are supposed to be accurate. Here...here! Although having said that, my parking isn't always quite as elegant as it should be, but then my excuse is that I'm a novice pilot with only a mere 130+ hours. Talking of international differences, I was talking to a German glider pilot recently and we were discussing aerotows. When I suggested that we (glider pilots in the UK) release and climb left, he said 'oh, in Germany its the other way around, we release and climb right!' I'm glad I found this out early it might have saved me from a nasty accident in the future. Not everywhere in the UK. At Cambridge we climb to the right after release like the rest of the world - except during the Gransden Regionals where we climb left to keep the visitors happy. I don't know the reason behind this - it predates my membership by a long time. The curious thing about all of this is I would have thought that all FAI members would have subscribed to the same standards but it seems not so. They do just about everywhere outside the UK. I've heard the basis is that a left turning tug gives its left-seat pilot a better view of goings on below him. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Advanced Soaring Seminar - Eastern PA | B Lacovara | Piloting | 0 | February 9th 04 01:54 AM |
capt. Maurizio Pogiali- Italian Air Force | peter25 | Piloting | 0 | November 25th 03 09:40 AM |
capt. Maurizio Poggiali- Italian Air Force | peter25 | Military Aviation | 0 | November 25th 03 09:40 AM |
memory of capt. Maurizio Poggiali- Italian air force | petit prince | Piloting | 2 | November 25th 03 09:34 AM |
memory of capt. Maurizio Poggiali- Italian Air Force | petit prince | Naval Aviation | 0 | November 23rd 03 09:25 PM |