Medium performance gliders

absolutely!, in fact you shouldn't limit your glider search to just what is
or has been only recently offered..
many of us did and still do enjoy flying and going XC in K6's and gliders
that have less performance...they still, just as in their day, go XC just
fine....slower maybe but in many ways are even better to begin these
journeys with...they climb well, better than most super ships, land slower
and shorter and in many ways safer for the beginning XC flights... it's
actually a pity many have never had the chance or just looked past these
gliders and have missed much of what soaring is all about..
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

wrote in message
...
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

Doug Hoffman wrote:
Another question is,
would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would
most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

Was it Derek Piggot that said "Buy all the performance you can
afford (all things being equal). Higher performance will lessen
the chance for landout during x-country."?

Landing out is a pilot choice, not an equipment attribute. The pilot
decides how important it is to return home, or if he prefers to land at
an airport instead of in a field, and flies accordingly. With 50:1,
he'll fly farther than with 25:1, but at the same risk of landing out.

I know many pilots in high performance gliders that don't land out, but
a lot of them are simply not pushing themselves or their glider very
hard. These pilots generally enjoy this more relaxed soaring, but it's
their choice not to land out, not something the equipment prevents.

A pilot that likes pushing the limits of his ability might consider the
advantages of a medium or lower performance glider: you are much closer
to home when you land out, and people are amazed at what you can
accomplish. The OLC Will reward you with high placings in the results.

And finally, I've seen pilots that moved into a high performance glider,
and flew cautiously and without much enjoyment, because they didn't have
the confidence to risk a land out in a 50' (or bigger) wingspan glider
that landed fast. They would've been better off in a 1-26, Ka-6, PW-5,
or similar, until their skills and confidence were greater.

So, speaking as former Ka-6e owner that got his diamonds in it, I had a
lot fun, and what I learned in it worked even better when I did get a
higher performance glider. I now fly a 50:1 glider, and "land-out" even
more often, because I push harder now. By "land-out", I mean I start the
motor to avoid actually putting the wheel in the dirt. It's great -
aggressive flying, and still home for beer and pizza!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Mar 8, 4:45*pm, toad wrote:
That depends ! *"Know thyself" is the most important thing.

Do you want to:
* *Keep up (even come close) to higher performance gliders ?
* *Fly contests ? *(handicaps won't make flying a task possible on a
really weak day)
* *Mind landing out more ? * (good retrieve crew)

Why would you want to by a low-med performance glider, even though a
used med-high performance is available for the same price ? * One
design racing for the PW5 has bitten the dust. *If you want one
design, get a 1-26.

I know that I would be frustrated in a PW-5 or L33, because the
conditions here in the Northeast USA often get marginal for those
gliders. *You would struggle more and tend to land out more. *I have
seen my friends with those gliders be frustrated with their XC
performance. *You would not be able to tag along behind any of you
glider buddies and you better have a good retrieve crew.

But remember the choices are not just PW-5 or ASG-29 *there is a whole
range of price/performance points. *You specifically ask to ignore the
price but cheaper is the only advantage a medium performance glider
has.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 (1:36)
3S

David Stevenson placed second in the USA in the OLC for the year
2007. His longest flights were in a K6E. Nuff said...
Finger
Z2

On Mar 8, 9:38*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 8, 4:45*pm, toad wrote:





That depends ! *"Know thyself" is the most important thing.

Do you want to:
* *Keep up (even come close) to higher performance gliders ?
* *Fly contests ? *(handicaps won't make flying a task possible on a
really weak day)
* *Mind landing out more ? * (good retrieve crew)

Why would you want to by a low-med performance glider, even though a
used med-high performance is available for the same price ? * One
design racing for the PW5 has bitten the dust. *If you want one
design, get a 1-26.

I know that I would be frustrated in a PW-5 or L33, because the
conditions here in the Northeast USA often get marginal for those
gliders. *You would struggle more and tend to land out more. *I have
seen my friends with those gliders be frustrated with their XC
performance. *You would not be able to tag along behind any of you
glider buddies and you better have a good retrieve crew.

But remember the choices are not just PW-5 or ASG-29 *there is a whole
range of price/performance points. *You specifically ask to ignore the
price but cheaper is the only advantage a medium performance glider
has.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 (1:36)
3S

David Stevenson placed second in the USA in the OLC for the year
2007. *His longest flights were in a K6E. *Nuff said...
Finger
Z2- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I fly an Apis-13 an regularly fly XC and "local-XC".........it's
great.............and if I do need to land out, it is light enough and
can be slowed down enough to land in someones "back-
yard".............yep...........I do it again in a heart-beat!
Brad
199AK

On 8 Mar, 16:18, wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

I think it's far too dependent on individual pilots, sites and areas.
I, for example, have no plans to get rid of the 34:1 wooden glider in
which I have been having fun for twelve (I think) years.

There are certainly a lot of pilots out there who buy performance for
their early cross country flying. They may be less frustrated
pilots ... but are they very good pilots?

Ian

Hi Eric,

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Doug Hoffman wrote:

Was it Derek Piggot that said "Buy all the performance you can afford
(all things being equal). Higher performance will lessen the chance
for landout during x-country."?

Landing out is a pilot choice, not an equipment attribute. The pilot
decides how important it is to return home, or if he prefers to land at
an airport instead of in a field, and flies accordingly. With 50:1,
he'll fly farther than with 25:1, but at the same risk of landing out.

So you don't recall if Derek said that (or something very similar) either?


I know many pilots in high performance gliders that don't land out, but
a lot of them are simply not pushing themselves or their glider very
hard. These pilots generally enjoy this more relaxed soaring, but it's
their choice not to land out, not something the equipment prevents.

Hypothetical situation (in time maybe not so hypothetical): In the
future we have 400 pound empty motorless 18 meter gliders with 80:1
glide and thermaling characteristics superior to a 1-26. Someone has a
restored a Schweizer 2-22. The 2-22 and the 18 meter take off for some
x-country flying here in Michigan on a typical weak day with 1-2 knot
thermals spread far apart with 3,000' AGL being the highest one can go.
I'd put my money on the likelihood of the 18 meter not landing out
compared to the 2-22. Landing out being defined here as landing in a
field not an airport. Here we have a *lot* of little airports/airstrips
peppered all over the place. If you get in trouble it is going to be
easy to get to an airstrip in the 18 meter. Call for an aero retrieve
and you land back at your home strip in 20 minutes. The 2-22 has a
decidedly less desirable ordeal having landed in a farmer's field (fetch
the trailer, disassemble in the field, etc.).


I now fly a 50:1 glider, and "land-out" even
more often, because I push harder now. By "land-out", I mean I start the
motor to avoid actually putting the wheel in the dirt. It's great -
aggressive flying, and still home for beer and pizza!

Yes, that would be great. But in 2008 the vast majority of us have to
deal with "real" land outs. Not knocking self-rescuing gliders, but I
am *far* more impressed by someone who flies a long distance on a weak
day in a motorless than someone who flies the same with a motor, all
other things being equal. The psychological experience (adrenaline
factor?) for the pilot in the motorless is a whole 'nuther thing
compared to the self-rescuing. Yes, I know that sometimes the motors
fail to start. My contention remains. Especially as motor
technology/reliability improves, which it has/is.

Regards,

-Doug

I too got started in a wooden sailplane (27:1) and landed out in every
conceivable location in California and Nevada! I can still remember my
first flight in glass (Libelle), after a thoroughly enjoyable 3 hours,
I asked myself ; Why didn't you do this 400 hours ago? Don't go
cheep'o on your instruments and trailer, either. You will fight that
POS trailer everytime you put it together or take it apart. Get a
decent audio vario and GPS with computer that tells you the altitude
required to make it to the nearest suitable location (not necessarily
an airport).............Now go out and enjoy this sport and don't
spend 4 years learning everything the hard way!
JJ

snip
More than the performance, you'll get frustrated with difficulty
handling a glider on the ground. *Look for a glider with a trailer and
support equipment that makes it reasonably easy to assemble and handle
the glider. *You'll appreciate it when you are disassembling in a field
after dark. *Been there, done that. *As have almost everyone on this
newsgroup.

Dave


I have to second this statement. People kept telling me how hard the
1-26 was to assemble. With some work on the trailer and ground
equipment these same people were always amazed that I could go from
driving up to climbing into to cockpit in less than 25 minutes.

My current airplane an HP16T can be assembled to flight status in less
than 15 minutes.

Brian

On Mar 9, 3:09 am, Brad wrote:
On Mar 8, 9:38 pm, "
wrote:



On Mar 8, 4:45 pm, toad wrote:

That depends ! "Know thyself" is the most important thing.

Do you want to:
Keep up (even come close) to higher performance gliders ?
Fly contests ? (handicaps won't make flying a task possible on a
really weak day)
Mind landing out more ? (good retrieve crew)

Why would you want to by a low-med performance glider, even though a
used med-high performance is available for the same price ? One
design racing for the PW5 has bitten the dust. If you want one
design, get a 1-26.

I know that I would be frustrated in a PW-5 or L33, because the
conditions here in the Northeast USA often get marginal for those
gliders. You would struggle more and tend to land out more. I have
seen my friends with those gliders be frustrated with their XC
performance. You would not be able to tag along behind any of you
glider buddies and you better have a good retrieve crew.

But remember the choices are not just PW-5 or ASG-29 there is a whole
range of price/performance points. You specifically ask to ignore the
price but cheaper is the only advantage a medium performance glider
has.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 (1:36)
3S

David Stevenson placed second in the USA in the OLC for the year
2007. His longest flights were in a K6E. Nuff said...
Finger
Z2- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I fly an Apis-13 an regularly fly XC and "local-XC".........it's
great.............and if I do need to land out, it is light enough and
can be slowed down enough to land in someones "back-
yard".............yep...........I do it again in a heart-beat!
Brad
199AK

I would consider buying a K6, K8 or 1-26. I'm too heavy to fit in some
of the new real lightweight gliders, but they look interesting.

A selflaunch Silent Targa is what I would probably buy if I won a
small lottory. :-)

Toad

I have been fortunate in owning 3 gliders for many years - a
DG800B, Stemme S10 VT and a SparrowHawk. These 3
aircraft are the extremes. Also until very recently I flew club
ships such a a 1-34. Pegasus, Grob 102 and 103, DG 1000
etc. Why did I do that? Convenience! Rather than getting
one of my machines out Soar Minden would just place me
in their machine and off I would go. So what am I implying?
I find almost any glider enjoyable to fly and base each
flying experience on whether I have used the limitations
of that machine to its fullest.
I have probably got more fun out of the SparrowHawk than
all the other machines put together. Is it the highest
performance glider? NO! Then why do like it so much.
Because it is such a pleasure to fly, light, precise and
with no bad habits. I can totally cross the
controls and it kinda says to me why are you doing that
I am going to partially ignore you. The DG goes into a
very fast and aggressive spin when I do that.
Unless it is important to you to break records, get badges
and be super serious about competitions almost any glider
that does not have bad habits can be most enjoyable.
Remember it is the gray matter that counts so much
more than the machine. I get much pleasure releasing at
1000 feet agl while the motor heads go to 3500 feet agl
to switch off their motors and on most days I keep up
with them with the SparrowHawk. Good luck in your
selection.
Dave