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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"



 
 
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  #101  
Old March 16th 10, 10:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 16, 5:01*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:05*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:



The ones I saw on the Neckar had substantial freeboard:http://www.freefoto.com/images/2026/...and-Barges--Ri...


Yes, when empty. *I've watched many a barge in the Seine and Rhine
rivers and when loaded the deck is almost awash! *So depending on what
was put in them, freeboard may or may not have been a problem. One
assumes a moderately intelligent planner at the time would have taken
that into account.

Cheers,

Kirk


Getting the stuff off on a beach just might be the hardest part of the
trip
  #102  
Old March 16th 10, 10:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
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Posts: 57
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 16, 5:05*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
...
Getting the stuff off on a beach just might be the hardest part of the
trip.


If the U-boats were even twice as effective as on D-Day the RN would
have made glorious, bloody history.

jsw
  #103  
Old March 16th 10, 11:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Mar 16, 5:05 pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
...
Getting the stuff off on a beach just might be the hardest part of the
trip.


If the U-boats were even twice as effective as on D-Day the RN would
have made glorious, bloody history.

jsw


Well there are two minor problems.

1) In 1940 the Kriegsmarine had only a small fraction of the number of
U-boats
it had in 1944 and they didn't have the French and Belgian bases available.

2) Twice zero is still zero, the U-Boats were totally ineffective on D-Day.

During June 1944 U-Boats in the channel did manage to sink two frigates
and damage a number of other ships but 12 of them were sunk in the process.
The hunter had become the hunted.

Keith

  #104  
Old March 17th 10, 12:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 10
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

"Keith Willshaw" writes:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Mar 16, 5:05 pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
...
Getting the stuff off on a beach just might be the hardest part of the
trip.


If the U-boats were even twice as effective as on D-Day the RN would
have made glorious, bloody history.

jsw


Well there are two minor problems.

1) In 1940 the Kriegsmarine had only a small fraction of the number of
U-boats
it had in 1944 and they didn't have the French and Belgian bases available.

2) Twice zero is still zero, the U-Boats were totally ineffective on D-Day.

During June 1944 U-Boats in the channel did manage to sink two frigates
and damage a number of other ships but 12 of them were sunk in the process.
The hunter had become the hunted.


By late 1940 I think the Germans were still struggling with their
(magenetic) torpedo firing mechanisms also.
  #105  
Old March 17th 10, 04:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Bill Kambic[_2_]
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Posts: 49
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:25:43 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 16, 5:05*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
...
Getting the stuff off on a beach just might be the hardest part of the
trip.


If the U-boats were even twice as effective as on D-Day the RN would
have made glorious, bloody history.

jsw


People forget that the RN had subs in 1940, too. If the Kriegsmarine
had tried an invasion they would have been as subject to attack as the
Allies were in '44 and without any significant anti-submarine
capability.

Any German sea borne operation was at best a chimera. Or more likely
a way to fox Statlin into thinking, "all is well."

  #106  
Old March 17th 10, 10:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:25:43 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Mar 16, 5:05 pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
...
Getting the stuff off on a beach just might be the hardest part of the
trip.


If the U-boats were even twice as effective as on D-Day the RN would
have made glorious, bloody history.

jsw


People forget that the RN had subs in 1940, too. If the Kriegsmarine
had tried an invasion they would have been as subject to attack as the
Allies were in '44 and without any significant anti-submarine
capability.


The Germans were outnumbered by better than 5 to 1 in naval terms.
There were 17 destroyers just tasked with securing the approaches
to the channel from U-boat attack.

The cruisers from Harwich would reach the invasion site in a few hours
followed by the battle fleet from Scapa. To oppose at least 5 Battleships
20 or so cruisers and 50 destroyers the Germans could muster only
1 capital ship 2 or 3 cruisers and a handful of destroyers.

The German invasion barges were mostly towed and had a speed of less
than 4 knots , it was estimated that they would take as long as 30 hours
to make the crossing. The Heer relied on horse drawn artillery so planned
on using 4000 horses in the first wave. These would be carried on towed
rafts.

In the one and only trial most of these rafts overturned. It was estimated
that 10-20% of the invasion barges would be lost at sea even if
the RN didn't intervene.

While the RN dealt with the Kriegsmarine there were hundreds of light
vessels ranging from armed trawlers to MTB's which could have massacred
the invasion fleet. An old fishing boat with a 12 pounder and a bofors
gun is no joke if its firing at you and you are sea sick soldier on a canal
barge.

Any German sea borne operation was at best a chimera. Or more likely
a way to fox Statlin into thinking, "all is well."


It was a bluff as well, with luck the British might give in.

Keith

  #107  
Old March 17th 10, 12:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
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Posts: 57
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 16, 11:40*pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
O...

People forget that the RN had subs in 1940, too. *If the Kriegsmarine
had tried an invasion they would have been as subject to attack as the
Allies were in '44 and without any significant anti-submarine
capability.....

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? Many ships fired
at friendly aircraft that they could clearly see but not properly
identify.

jsw
  #108  
Old March 17th 10, 01:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
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Posts: 57
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 17, 7:42*am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
Safe zones.

Your submarines operate only in areas where you tell people not to shoot at
submarines.
William Black


In other words, not where the U-Boote might be defending the invasion
convoy. OTOH the Germans who survived to write their books didn't
attack when the convoy escorts were nearby.

British submarines:
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/britsubs.html

jsw
  #109  
Old March 17th 10, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Chris
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Posts: 14
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?


They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

Chris Manteuffel


  #110  
Old March 17th 10, 03:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 17, 10:27*am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?


They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

Chris Manteuffel


Also, as in the situation during the Battle of Britain, the idea is to
kill Germans and if the British submarines take losses it is for the
final result, repelling the German invasion. The submarines can sink
or disable the tow boats.
 




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