Season Passes available from Soaring NV in Minden

Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only maintain but grow.

wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But
they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
maintain but grow.

I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

True Eric, and I do not believe motor gliders are the problem, they’re, as you said, just the natural reaction for guys who want to fly when n where they want.

Man I do know the feeling of being the only guy around to do the towing on a good day and doing-my-duty watching the gang head out on good flights lol..

I would absolutely love to have a mini lak but I just can not pull the trigger on that kind of an expense, and I am addicted to playing this low performance one-class type racing/flying. Its interesting to note that we are seeing a bunch of guys jumping into this type of flying again, similar to me, leaving the high dollar-high performance side to jump into the fun and level non machine based competition that is 1-26 flying. Its even driving up the prices on these little birds.

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:28:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Colten are you going to fly in the 1-26 championships this coming summer at Sunflower? It would be a great experience and you have some good coaching you can get from Tony, although he is used to flying that higher performance bird (cherokee) lol.
Dan

Colton, you fly and Eileen and I will pay for all your tows. Bob

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations.. But
they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
maintain but grow.

I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I partnered once with two other guys in a sailboat. It was not a perfect solution. I was often sitting on land when I wanted/could have been out sailing. I eventually bought them out. Yes, it was a good introduction, but it comes with a whole lot of considerations, including the personalities and cordiality of the other members in the group.

As we all know, the population of glider pilots is slowly "aging out". Why? Well, things ain't as affordable as they once were, for one. With the prices of these new high-performance machines about the same as a small house, there's no wonder why. What normal average working person coming out of college with a mountain of educational debt, or someone who just started a family can afford that? How many families now have to have two earners just to make ends meet? How many young people are getting into soaring now? At these prices, you could only do it if you come from a family with "money". Gone are the days when you could go to the airport and wash planes to pay for flying lessons. That economy is long gone.

Go ahead--keep thinking that your operation is "worth it". It may well be. But this is the very thing that is contributing to dwindling numbers in our sport. The lower the numbers of participants, the harder it is to find volunteers, and the more of a burden it puts on those that do step up to offer their services for free. I'll do my own ground handling, by myself if needed, to save $25.

We need to grow the sport from the bottom. We need to get kids back in the air. We need to show them that this is something that CAN be done on next to nothing. Be cause it can be done, if we decide to set it up that way. But it will take a significant commitment from those with the ability, to build the momentum to critical mass. One way to cut costs is to use ground launches--auto tows, reverse auto tows, winch launches (if you can set out the capital for a decent winch). That will SIGNIFICANTLY cut the cost of soaring. And if you have a lot of folks in in the club, there's bound to be more people hanging out around the club that can help with the ground handling. I'm sorry, but this topic is dear to my heart. My personal situation is that I've come from "nothing", and while I do have some limited means now, I still cringe at the prices charged by some operations, to the point I will take my business elsewhere. If we want to keep the sport alive and prevent it from dying, we need to start doing things differently.

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 8:59:47 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But
they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
maintain but grow.

I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden.. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance..

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I partnered once with two other guys in a sailboat. It was not a perfect solution. I was often sitting on land when I wanted/could have been out sailing. I eventually bought them out. Yes, it was a good introduction, but it comes with a whole lot of considerations, including the personalities and cordiality of the other members in the group.

As we all know, the population of glider pilots is slowly "aging out". Why? Well, things ain't as affordable as they once were, for one. With the prices of these new high-performance machines about the same as a small house, there's no wonder why. What normal average working person coming out of college with a mountain of educational debt, or someone who just started a family can afford that? How many families now have to have two earners just to make ends meet? How many young people are getting into soaring now? At these prices, you could only do it if you come from a family with "money". Gone are the days when you could go to the airport and wash planes to pay for flying lessons. That economy is long gone.

Go ahead--keep thinking that your operation is "worth it". It may well be. But this is the very thing that is contributing to dwindling numbers in our sport. The lower the numbers of participants, the harder it is to find volunteers, and the more of a burden it puts on those that do step up to offer their services for free. I'll do my own ground handling, by myself if needed, to save $25.

We need to grow the sport from the bottom. We need to get kids back in the air. We need to show them that this is something that CAN be done on next to nothing. Be cause it can be done, if we decide to set it up that way.. But it will take a significant commitment from those with the ability, to build the momentum to critical mass. One way to cut costs is to use ground launches--auto tows, reverse auto tows, winch launches (if you can set out the capital for a decent winch). That will SIGNIFICANTLY cut the cost of soaring. And if you have a lot of folks in in the club, there's bound to be more people hanging out around the club that can help with the ground handling. I'm sorry, but this topic is dear to my heart. My personal situation is that I've come from "nothing", and while I do have some limited means now, I still cringe at the prices charged by some operations, to the point I will take my business elsewhere. If we want to keep the sport alive and prevent it from dying, we need to start doing things differently.

No question that a syndicate can significantly reduce costs. Just having one partner will cut your costs in half. If you get a two-place, even your tow charges are half. I, too, started out with more time than money, and appreciate the cost barriers to flying. Kids can start out by virtually flying using Condor flight simulator. Costs about $100 with a joystick. And you can fly anywhere in the world. Clubs are still the most viable option to keeping costs down. Blaming high costs for declining participation is just a convenient whipping boy. Rounds of golf played per year are dropping, too - and you can play a round for less than the cost of a tow (some places for $10-$20).

Tom

Please remember this thread was about costs associated with flying at Minden, Nevada. Minden is a world class destination soaring site. Pilots from around the world travel to Minden for spectacular flying. Think Bitterwasser, Omarama (or other fantastic facilities throughout the world). Without proper service and equipment, Minden can’t compete with those other destination sites. They are not catering to novice pilots like your local club does. Check out what it costs to fly at either of the above mentioned locations. You could easily budget nearly $1000 / day for flying. Put in context, Minden’s fees are reasonable. If it keeps the business there afloat, we should all be grateful for the opportunity it give us to fly there someday.

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:57:41 AM UTC-7, Craig Reinholt wrote:
Please remember this thread was about costs associated with flying at Minden, Nevada. Minden is a world class destination soaring site. Pilots from around the world travel to Minden for spectacular flying. Think Bitterwasser, Omarama (or other fantastic facilities throughout the world). Without proper service and equipment, Minden can’t compete with those other destination sites. They are not catering to novice pilots like your local club does. Check out what it costs to fly at either of the above mentioned locations. You could easily budget nearly $1000 / day for flying. Put in context, Minden’s fees are reasonable. If it keeps the business there afloat, we should all be grateful for the opportunity it give us to fly there someday.

Fair enough.

Craig, you do make a valid point. But there is something else to consider. Having been someone who lived in Minden for over 20 years, I can tell you Minden soaring does not have a lock on great soaring. It is not a “magical place� where diamonds are free and theres a 10k thermal every mile down the course. In fact, there are many other north american soaring sites just as spectacular. Minden is something of a pain to fly out of nowadays. When it was a small sleepy forgotten place, yes it was a glider pilots shangrala, with light traffic, free camping, great camraderie, and affordable services. Not so now.

Right up the road there is Air Sailing, great place to fly out of, there is Truckee, also a great place to stage flights from. Both offer what Minden does with fair pricing. My point is not to knock the Minden commercial operator, I wish them all the best. My point is just because its “Minden� does not grant it any more of an exalted place in soaring hierarchy, or soaring pricing. I can name a few other places which are just as exalted such as Moriarty, Marfa, Ridge Soaring. These are also “halloed� places in the halls of spectacular historic soaring sites which all do not feel the need for exalted pricing and/or add on pricing. If guys want to spend $1000/day at other places, and those soaring sites can “convince� them its justified, great, let capitalism reign. But a savvy soarer will gravitate toward financially friendlier climes. Others will find alternative means of achieving the same goal. I took to auto towing off of rabbit dry lake when I did’nt have the cash for a tow. Then worked my way upwind into the Minden primary wave to get my diamond. I did not need PASCO or Soar Minden, for that matter. There are few folks nowadays that are as resourceful as I was back in the day, but I grew up under the shadow of “The Boy Who Flew With Condors� era where soaring was LIFE, and a lifestyle. Nowadays, sad to say, many folks will be convinced that they just can’t afford the sport anymore and move on to other pursuits that give them more pleasure per dollar. Its this “convincing� of folks that it takes big money to have big fun in soaring that is the real tragedy.

I think Craig makes an excellent point. In fact, the whole thread seems to mix commercial and club operations, and these are apples and oranges in my opinion. I've been a member of a club for quite some time, and I've also worked at a commercial glider operation. They've both got good and bad points, but I don't think you can compare the fee structures. The club environment is usually all-volunteer, and the glider FBO is ostensibly a business. For instance, I'll instruct at my club this morning. We will have two tow pilots for the day, me, and more than one line crew. I'm happy to do it, it's how I learned and it's a great deal of fun. We are a non-profit club running two towplanes and 6 or 7 gliders. Add that up when you have to pay for the labor and the equation rapidly changes. Do I think this is good or desirable or healthy for soaring (or GA) in the long run? Not really, but the reality seems to be that we are in the age of $200,000+ gliders (and Carbon Cubs). Hey, I love 1-26s, we have one at our club that gets a good workout. Personally, I fly an older Standard class ship which fits into my performance/budget situation. As far as Minden goes - and I've spent time there in the last five years - the conditions that made it a soaring Mecca are still there. Truckee and Air Sailing are fine spots as well, but I know some pilots who choose to fly out of Minden instead. Whatever fits your situation, and it's good to have choices. However, to the original point - commercial glider FBOs and soaring clubs are not the same thing and I think there's been a lot of mixing of the two in the thread discussion.

Mike