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Glider cross-country time toward commercial SEL requrements?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 24th 04, 02:23 AM
Matt Michael
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Default Glider cross-country time toward commercial SEL requrements?

I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
requirements.

FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes".

FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
an appropriate aircraft".

I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".

Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?

Thanks,
Matt Michael CFIG
Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
IS-28B2 Lark N28DG
  #2  
Old November 24th 04, 02:51 AM
Blake Oliver
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A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
Nice try though.

Blake Oliver
44



Matt Michael wrote:

I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
requirements.

FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes".

FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
an appropriate aircraft".

I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".

Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?

Thanks,
Matt Michael CFIG
Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
IS-28B2 Lark N28DG

  #3  
Old November 24th 04, 03:31 AM
Jack
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Blake Oliver wrote:
A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.


And this affects the following how?

FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes".


So, 40 hours could be in a sailplane, or in a gyro-copter for that matter.


FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
an appropriate aircraft".


The only question is whether or not the FAA interpretation which
finally comes down will accept the sailplane as "an _appropriate_
aircraft". IMO, 50+ mile x-c in a sailplane is a more significant (and
demanding) x-c flight than it would be in C-150.



Jack
  #4  
Old November 24th 04, 03:39 AM
Marc Ramsey
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Matt Michael wrote:
FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at
least 10 hours must be in airplanes".


Blake Oliver wrote:
A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
Nice try though.


Please note that only 10 of the 50 hours must be in an "airplane", the
other 40 must be in an "aircraft". Those 40 hours could be in a
"glider". However, one must land at least 50 nm away from the point of
departure in order for a flight to count as "cross-country. So, if one
has 40 hours worth of cross-country flights where you land at least 50
nm away from home, you'll only need 10 hours of "airplane" cross-country
time to meet the requirements.

For example, I have about 750 hours of cross-country flight time in
gliders (most well over 200 miles), but nearly all ended up back at
home, or less than 25 miles away. So I only have 20 hours or so of
glider cross-country time from the FAA's perspective.

Marc
  #5  
Old November 24th 04, 03:42 AM
Vaughn
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"Blake Oliver" wrote in message
news:hORod.383895$wV.186005@attbi_s54...
A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
Nice try though.


Huh?

1) 61.129 (a) (ii) states that 10 of the 50 hours must be in airplanes, which
clearly implies that the other 40 may be done in some other type of aircraft
other than an "airplane".

2) 61.1 (b) (3) "Cross-country time means-" makes no mention of the word
"airplane".

Did I miss something? I don't see how there could possibly be any question
that glider cross-country time would apply towards the Commercial SEl rating as
long as it otherwise meets the definition (50-mile straight-line distance,
pilotage etc.).

Vaughn






  #7  
Old November 24th 04, 07:39 AM
Matt Michael
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"Vaughn" wrote in message ...
"Blake Oliver" wrote in message
news:hORod.383895$wV.186005@attbi_s54...
A "glider" is not defined as an "airplane", as per the FAR's.
Nice try though.


Huh?

1) 61.129 (a) (ii) states that 10 of the 50 hours must be in airplanes, which
clearly implies that the other 40 may be done in some other type of aircraft
other than an "airplane".

2) 61.1 (b) (3) "Cross-country time means-" makes no mention of the word
"airplane".

Did I miss something? I don't see how there could possibly be any question
that glider cross-country time would apply towards the Commercial SEl rating as
long as it otherwise meets the definition (50-mile straight-line distance,
pilotage etc.).

Vaughn



The term "appropriate aircraft" in 61.1 does leave room for
interpretation. Appropriate to the catagory and class of the rating
sought? Appropriate perhaps meaning with an N number?

One examiner I asked said he didn't know but that if I showed up with
40 hours of balloon cross country he'd tell me to take a hike.

I don't want to show up for a checkride and find out I need 40 more
hours with that infernal contraption screaming away up front.

MM
  #8  
Old November 24th 04, 11:57 AM
Stefan
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Matt Michael wrote:

One examiner I asked said he didn't know but that if I showed up with
40 hours of balloon cross country he'd tell me to take a hike.


But is a balloon an aircraft at all? In German, at least, balloons don't
even "fly"!

Stefan

  #9  
Old November 24th 04, 01:57 PM
Ray Lovinggood
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(Regrets if this gets posted twice. The first time,
it seemed to disappear into bit-space.)

I don't know the answer to the original question, but
I'm interestd to learn the answer(s).

Interesting the FAA requires a flight of 50nm and a
landing away from the originating field to be considered
'XC.' In a glider, if you get more than one thermal
away from home field, you're 'XC.'

While I do want to know the answer, I wonder why the
original poster of this thread would want to 'cut short'
his 'training' time. Yes, he will save money on flying
before he gets his rating, but he's going to spend
the money anyway after he gets his rating, so overall,
I don't see a money savings.

It's odd that we do all we can do to fly as many hours
as we can, gaining experience, having fun, and seeing
new sights with each additional moment in the air.
Then, we look for ways to make our flying time shorter.
I read about and hear about pilots complaining about
diversions dictated by Air Traffic Control and I wonder
why the complaint. Yes, I know it's more money, but
heck, we're going to have to pay to fly anyway. On
one VFR flight in a Cezzna 150, the controller vectored
me around the Class C airport I was approaching to
land due to traffic. He apologized for the diversion,
but I thought it was great. I flew over land I hadn't
been over and got some addtional flying time. Didn't
bother me a bit. Yep, some of us want to build time
and some of us complain when we have to fly more than
we think we should.

What does it take to make us happy?
(I'll settle for a 0.5 knot thermal about right now
:-) )

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
(Facing a long winter, and no wise cracks from the
Northern Plains crowd about the 'long' North Carolina
winters...)

At 06:30 24 November 2004, Tom Seim wrote:
(Matt Michael) wrote in message news:...
I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country
time can be
applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical
experience
requirements.

FAR 61.129 says '50 hours of cross-country flight
of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes'.

FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other
things, flight
with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure
and 'conducted in
an appropriate aircraft'.

I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma
City. All are
saying, 'Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to
you'.

Anyone with experience with this question care to
weigh in?

Thanks,
Matt Michael CFIG
Woodstock N20609 'Wanders Wonder'
IS-28B2 Lark N28DG


I have done exactly this. The bottom line is that you
CAN use your
glider XC time, IF you land more than 50 NM from departure.
This saved
me about one half of the flight time. Nowadays, that
is 25 times $70
per hour = $1,750.

Tom




  #10  
Old November 24th 04, 02:45 PM
Brian Case
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If it does not specifically specify an airplane, Helicoptor, Glider,
etc. Then any aircraft will work for the requirement.

So, From the FARs you show below, you can apply 40 hours of glider
cross country to your Commecial SEL Rating. However you must land at
least 50 miles from your original point of departure for it to count
as a cross country.

I know a few glider pilots that have done this. I have also
transitioned a few Helicopter pilots into airplanes that have done
this as well.

I have spent a fair amount of time conversing with Alan Pinkston of
AFS-600 and the Author the Part 61 FAQ. He also in the past has the
done the training for the examiners, and many examiners have met or
been trained in person by him. I have had to show some of his
responses to my inquires to a few examiners to prove various
interpretations of the rules.

One of my more difficult questions for him was How do I log glider
x-country flights where I do not land 50 miles away? The official
answer came back as you may log it as Cross Country time, however it
can not be used as time towards a rating. Since the only rating that
allows you to log x-country time where you do not land 50 nm away from
your departure point is the ATP rating, and it specifies that it must
be done in an airplane.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL





(Matt Michael) wrote in message . com...
I'm trying to determine if any of my glider cross-country time can be
applied to the commercial single engine aeronautical experience
requirements.

FAR 61.129 says "50 hours of cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes".

FAR 61.1 defines cross country time as, among other things, flight
with landing beyond 50 nautical miles of departure and "conducted in
an appropriate aircraft".

I've talked to a local examiner, FSDO, and Oklahoma City. All are
saying, "Hmmm, good question! Let me get back to you".

Anyone with experience with this question care to weigh in?

Thanks,
Matt Michael CFIG
Woodstock N20609 "Wanders Wonder"
IS-28B2 Lark N28DG

 




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