Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Page 8 of Wings and Wheels for sale ads is the JJ refinished LS3a asking 28k.
That looks like the one I'd focus on. Recently repainted by a pro, all the extras and looks like its ready to rock. Maybe you could get it for 26.5 cash in hand.
This has been a long thread and I'm impressed that it did not go into the gutter, as so many of these do.

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 1:01:30 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On Page 8 of Wings and Wheels for sale ads is the JJ refinished LS3a asking 28k.
That looks like the one I'd focus on. Recently repainted by a pro, all the extras and looks like its ready to rock. Maybe you could get it for 26.5 cash in hand.
This has been a long thread and I'm impressed that it did not go into the gutter, as so many of these do.

Just a comment on rain. I have about 1700 hours, mostly XC in the western mountains, I have flown through serious rain storm once, and gotten rained on a handful of times. As for bugs, never more than a few.

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:04:06 PM UTC+9, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.

I have owned an LS-3, LS-3a and LS-4. Loved them all.

As mentioned above, LS-3 and 3a are different creatures.

Advantages of LS-3 over 3a:
1. Auto-hookups. Cant get it wrong. 3a need to be contected, but with a little practice is very straight forward.
2. Slightly better performance than 3a. Definitely less than an ASW-20; Dave Martin always pulled away from me.

Disadvantages of LS-3 over 3a
1. Fin is shorter. I found it would skid a little when thermally. 3a grooved extremely well.
2. Heavy wings. Not ridiculous, but noticeable.

Same
1. Both 3 and 3a come down on rails in landing configuration.
2. Cockpit is large and comfortable.
3. Both come down like 2-33s in the rain.

I would recommend the LS-3a all things considered, if you can stretch the budget, get an LS-4.

Cheers

David

Well I am trying to see two or three now.
This has been a great resource for me.
I went flying yesterday after not having flown in over 10 years. Got some dual at Tampa Bay Soaring Society. I had not even opened my log books for that time.
Anyway, I was rusty.
Flew a Blanik for the first time. Take off and landing were fine, no real crosswinds. However my thermaling was horrible. We had 2 to 5 knot lift around the field with ceilings around 4.5k feet. I was having a lot of trouble centering the thermals. With some help from my CFI, we had a 1.5 hour flight, which we only terminated because the day was getting late.

Anyway, with regards to my purchase, I am going to take a few weeks and get some more seat time in to see how I do. I am setting up to go see some gliders. Two candidates, the DG202 and the LS3a mentioned are both at Minden, so I can go look at those at the same time.

Thanks again for all the good dialog.
Mike

Good luck, either of those will be great to fly, even as a 202 owner the LS would be my choice given equal pricing, had there been one at that price when I got mine, I would have bought it .Here the LS would sell for around 5-10k more. It’s worth finding out if the 202 has carbon wings or glass.

Thanks for the comments.
Why the LS over the 202?
I understand they both have essentially the same airfoil, and I have read Dick Johnson's report on the 200 about 5 times. He says it's comfortable, flies well, has a 40 to 1 L/D and responds well to the various flap settings.

So assuming finish and equipment is roughly the same on two used gliders, why the premium on the LS3(a) over the DG 200 (202)?

Thanks
Mike

On Monday, April 8, 2019 at 7:48:32 AM UTC-7, Michael N. wrote:
Thanks for the comments.
Why the LS over the 202?
I understand they both have essentially the same airfoil, and I have read Dick Johnson's report on the 200 about 5 times. He says it's comfortable, flies well, has a 40 to 1 L/D and responds well to the various flap settings.

So assuming finish and equipment is roughly the same on two used gliders, why the premium on the LS3(a) over the DG 200 (202)?

Thanks
Mike

Probably because the LS has better handling. Some pilots value this higher than others, where that ranks is specific to each pilot. I've flown a 4 and a 200-17 and would much prefer the 3.
You've narrowed it down to gliders with such similar performance that it's time to put performance to the side. 2 points better or worse at best glide speed is sort of meaningless once you're actually out on XC, it is a very small difference. Perhaps the 3 goes better at faster speeds, I don't know, and that might be the only consideration between these two. But far greater factors now are the condition of the finish, and aesthetics that are particular to you, like seating position and comfort, location of controls and the panel, ease of rigging/trailering, etc.
First, a glider that has been refinished not in gel-coat is a huge asset. If it has been done by a reputable shop (the profile has been maintained and the "paint" will stay on), you never for all intents and purposes have to worry about the finish. At the price you are buying in at, the finish is worth more than the actual glider. A glider under about $35k is only worth the condition of it's finish, particularly the wings. It will not make economic sense to refinish the entire glider, ever! And resale value will hold.
Second, go sit in the gliders you are considering. Hopefully they will rig them for you and you can get a sense of what it will take to put your glider together every time you want to go fly. Sit in them rigged, bring your chute if you have one, and move the controls and reach the instruments. By then you might have a strong feeling for the one you want.
Lots of good info here for you, there has been so much interest here likely because we all like to consider what choice we would make now that we know what we know about what we have flown and owned. It's fun.
On that note, there is a DG-300 on W&W now near the other two you are looking at, might want to consider that one as well It's a buyers market!

Basically agree.

Nut behind the stick is worth more than a couple performance points. Time makes you a better nut.
Do you fit over potentially long hours.
A refinish (even if you do it......) is expensive.

As to -20's, strong thermal conditions or strong ridge, a -20B has a higher wing loading. Part of why I asked earlier where you intend to fly. Sucks flying a -20 limited to 9lbs and watching others blow by you....been there, done that.....sigh.

Ok good thanks
So yeah that's the my next step as I noted earlier, setting up some appointments to go see the 3 or 4 I have narrowed it down to.
I did see the 300, at this time I am kind of at a hard limit of $25k. So a bit outside my price range.

To answer the previous question of where will I be flying? Two primary locations, Utah in late spring through summer, central Florida winter through spring.
I'll be able to travel with a large camper, towing the glider, and have family in Utah, but my primary residence will be in Florida. I'd also like to get back to Minden during wave season once in a while.

Thanks again for all the feedback

Mike

Hi Michael, the only reason I would have the LS is the wider cockpit, the 202 handles very well, no great difference there I really like flying mine, apart from the arm space, the seat back to floor arrangement is the most comfortable, (Johnson called it the most comfortable he had flown) somewhat better than the LS 4 club glider I flew a lot, which has the same fuselage. I have the 17m extensions too, giving a worthwhile performance improvement. If you don’t have rather large arms shoulders, I would have the DG every time. Of course the 200-17 does not roll as fast as the 15, so a handling comparison against a 15m LS will always feel more responsive.