Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 9:04:06 PM UTC-6, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.

I owned an ASW-20 for 25 years; now fly an ASW-27. Never had winglets on the 20 and did not have any problem keeping up with a Ventus unless they were fully loaded with water. The only issue with the 20 is the manual hookups. Since I am older and more forgetful, I would not go back to manual hookups. The 20 is much better performance than the LS3. If you are going to do competitive flying with a full load of water, then I would go with the Ventus; however, I think to get one with a good finish you will be looking at 35K.

For recreational flying and considering the cost, I would go with the ASW-20, assuming you follow checklists and do a very thorough pre-flight control check. By the way, I flew an entire day in strong mountain conditions with out the blot in the tail of my 20!

Stu 2Z

Tom Stowers (Minden) has an LS-3a that was completely stripped, countoured and re-finished in Urethane in 2015. Decent trailer and instruments and price dropped to 28K. I would expect that ship to hold that selling price for some time to come. The 3 is the most comfortable ship I have ever flown and pleasant to fly with a light stick and good harmonics.
Hope this helps,
JJ

Ive flown The Mini Nimbus, Mosquito and DG 202. For gliders of that era using the FX67-k170 airfoil there is only a small spread of Performance, with the Pik 20 slightly worse due to poor airfoil accuracy, one locally is 19% thick rather than the 17 % it should be. The LS3 seems to be the best handling of the bunch, and the 20 with its thinner airfoil has the best performance.
I bought a 202. I would put the Mosquito second behind the DG, though for larger pilots the cockpit is a little small. Johnson said the DG was the most comfortable glider he had flown at the time.
The Mosquito was very nice to fly and had a big cockpit. The DG showed a slightly higher performance in Johnson’s tests, of about 1.5 L/D points. When I recently ran templates of my 202, the airfoil was still very accurate. I have found no great issue flying with flaps, compared to retrimming a standard class glider, there really isn’t much difference.
Both the DG and Mini have versions with carbon wings, which are lighter and make rigging easier.
All of these gliders are nice to fly and viceless handling. It really comes down to what suits you personally best, my advice would be to try and test fly as many of them as possible before making a decision.
The LS3, ASW20 AND DG200/202 have optional span extensions to about 17m which gives a worthwhile improvement in performance. Only the Mosquito has full automatic control hookups, I have fitted Wedekind sleeves that make hookups much easier, and is not a great cost or difficult to fit.
Recently Ingo Renner took my DG for a test flight and remarked that it is a very nice glider with no “buts�
In order of performance.
ASW20 =LS3
Dg 202
Mosquito = Mini Nimbus
Pik20
All capable of 1000km flight in the right hands and condition.

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 8:04:06 PM UTC-7, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.

Hi Michael: I've owned an LS-4, a Ventus C, and my current LS-6. For me there would be no choice. The LS gliders are a joy to fly. They have no bad habits; they hold tight circles easily; and on long flights they are much less fatiguing. On my third Ventus flight in turbulence I went into a high speed stall without any warning, found myself looking directly at the ground and thought I was going to die. It took me three years to fully trust the glider. The Ventus C and especially the B require constant attention to the flight controls. They do not fly themselves. Flying the Ventus will eventually make you a very good pilot, but you may not entirely enjoy the experience.

I have never flown an ASK 20, but I hear good things about them. I would avoid the 20A because it has a bad habit of spinning at low speeds. We lost a club member in such an accident. This was corrected in the 20B, and people who have them think it's a very fine glider. I'm not sure I would obsess about winglets. In the class of ships you're looking at other concerns are probably more important. Good luck in your quest!
Matt

ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). Handling is pleasant, more so than Ventus, and it is easiest glider to land on a short field. You get spare parts and technical assistance from factory without annual fees. It will drop wing if stalled in thermal, just like every single glider this old (especially with aft CG). Push stick forward and you are flying again. All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil. No doubt most of them can be pleasant to fly and perform ok, but they are not on the same level as '20.

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 1:53:19 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). ... All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil.

But, the 20 uses the older (and maybe better?) 62K153/131 family. Maybe that is why it was ahead of its time? Because it used an older airfoil section. Like its big brothers, the ASW 12 and ASW 17.

Steve Leonard

On Tuesday, April 2, 2019 at 9:59:15 AM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:

Not sure if you are a member of the Utah SOaring Association, there is a Mike N on the membership list, but you should be a member as you mention you are part time in UT. Four different airports, G103 and Twin Astirs to fly and access to a Pilatus when you are checked out.

The club is the best bang for your buck to stay current and gain experience as you are performing your search.

I am joining the Utah Soaring Association. Hoping to be in Utah most all of the summer and doing a lot of flying with the group. Also, need some refresher training and a BFR. Thanks!

On Tuesday, April 2, 2019 at 1:54:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Tom Stowers (Minden) has an LS-3a that was completely stripped, countoured and re-finished in Urethane in 2015. Decent trailer and instruments and price dropped to 28K. I would expect that ship to hold that selling price for some time to come. The 3 is the most comfortable ship I have ever flown and pleasant to fly with a light stick and good harmonics.
Hope this helps,
JJ

I am looking at this as a candidate. Thanks

Thanks for all the replies! This is great information.
I'm still searching.
From what I am seeing here it seems that in general most of these gliders in the late '70s early '80s era are roughly the same. Without trying to start a debate, maybe a bit of an edge going to the 20 or Ventus, with the caveats mentioned in the discussion.

I am not as concerned about manual VS automatic hookups. Obviously I would prefer automatic hookups. Who wouldn't? However the reality is in my price range I have to look at gliders that fall into both categories. I'm a software engineer and am very process deliberate, and to me having manual hookups means always being diligent in the process of putting the glider together.. Manual hookups do not make the glider less safe, you just have to diligently follow the assembly process, checklist, and positive control check every time. If you get distracted, double check everything, restart the assembly checklist from the beginning and re-check every fitting, every time. Then do a positive control check, again.

Having read this thread over from top to bottom a few times, as well as some private discussions, I've narrowed my search down to roughly 4-5 candidates, unless something new comes on the market in the next couple of weeks.

My main criteria now is finish and quality of the aircraft, trailer, and instrumentation. I'll just have to start doing some traveling and looking at aircraft. Right now my candidate list are a DG 200, a DG202, 2 LS3's, an ASW20, and maybe a Ventus, but I am still thinking about the Ventus due to conflicting opinions I am getting on that aircraft. Some say it's great, others not so much.

I was thinking about starting a thread on GPS displays and Flarm. i.e. If I get a glider without a GPS display such as an Oudie, or no Flarm, what are my options for updating at a reasonable cost?
I will want a transponder, at least Mode C, as I plan on getting back to Minden for some wave flying. (I went to 23.5k feet in the wave at Minden once, and have had several flights in the wave over 17k feet.)

Thanks again for all input, I do appreciate it.
Mike

The first iteration of the ASW-20 (there never was an "a" model as such) had a very aggressive flap setting, known by many of us as the "Jesus flap". That's what you said the first time you deployed it - lots and lots of drag, big change in attitude and no extra lift. I believe that most early spin accidents with the ASW-20 resulted from the combination of rearward CG plus early deployment of full landing flap in the pattern followed by a stall/spin on turning.
Schleicher recommended that the Jesus flap only be deployed when your final was properly set up. In the six years I owned my ASW-20, I only deployed maximum flap a couple of times - once when landing out in a very short space. Models from the ASW-20b on removed this last flap setting since it was never really needed.

I have followed several experienced cross-country pilots flying Ventus B gliders and it's noticeable that control movements are larger and more often than in other contemporary models. One pilot I know appeared to use the rudder for supplemental thrust as it was always flapping! I think it's safe to say it needs a bit more attention to fly than others.

I concur with comments about auto-hookups for controls and a decent trailer - once you've had either you never go back!

Mike