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#51
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On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:48:52 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote: To be fair some French colonial forces joined the British fighting the Germans and Italians long before Torch. Yes, that was mentioned in the CBS video. I didn't realize that they'd come from North Africa--thought maybe they'd been sea-lifted from Dunkirk and then moved around the Horn to Egypt. The video also mentioned Free Polish troops in the 8th Army. How did they get to Egypt? all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#52
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4 July 1940 near Gibraltar 3 French Hawks attacked a Sunderland of coastal command. 1 Hawk downed, 1 damaged. The French in North Africa also flew the Hawk H-75s (P-36 types) against U.S. Navy Wildcats during Operation Torch. I think some DB-9? (A-20 type) light bombers were also used. I don't remember the exact outcome, but the French got the worst of it. I believe that was the only instance in WWII where American pilots had to fight against American-built planes, though of course the Russo-Finnish Continuation War saw instances of Brewster Buffaloes in combat against Lend-Lease P-40s and perhaps P-39s. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#53
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Drewe Manton wrote in message .4...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in m: US troops always grumble; part of what makes US troops unique, I guess. Hardly! It's a characteristic of soldiers the world over, and led one British CO to say "if the men are moaning, things are okay, when they STOP moaning I'll start worrying because something is seriously wrong" That would appear to be a restatement of an old maxim. True enough that troops the world over do grumble; my mistake for using the word "unique", as opposed to maybe "typical of". ISTR it was one of your officers who was somewhat amazed that US troops tended to have to be told the "why" of their orders, as opposed to the quaint "yes, sir, three bags full, sir" type of response to which he was accustomed... Brooks |
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#56
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In message , Kevin
Brooks writes Drewe Manton wrote in message . 1.4... Hardly! It's a characteristic of soldiers the world over, and led one British CO to say "if the men are moaning, things are okay, when they STOP moaning I'll start worrying because something is seriously wrong" That would appear to be a restatement of an old maxim. True enough that troops the world over do grumble; my mistake for using the word "unique", as opposed to maybe "typical of". ISTR it was one of your officers who was somewhat amazed that US troops tended to have to be told the "why" of their orders, as opposed to the quaint "yes, sir, three bags full, sir" type of response to which he was accustomed... Depends when it happened. We're seriously into "Commander's Intent" here now and have been for some time; which means that subordinates need to not only know the task but what it's supposed to achieve. (Of course, it was not always thus...) This allows them a chance to ask and answer "What would my CO want me to do if he could see these altered circumstances?" more effectively than dogmatically obeying the letter of their orders. Also depends at what level the question is asked: you don't expect to have to explain why "stand sentry over these arcs until relieved" is necessary and where that action will fit into the Joint Campaign Plan when a corporal tasks a soldier to do so. You _certainly_ don't want to get into debate when you call for supporting fire... Finally, depends on the unit. Some regiments _do_ seem to prefer "shut up, salute, smile, obey" and reluctantly accept CI, while others strongly encourage "make sure the purpose is understood". -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
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On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:10:58 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote: I wasn't thinking the anger of the French people would be directed at the UK. Why ever not, it has been for the last thousand years or so. I've been watching the CBS Video History of WWII. Last night was Torch, the invasion of North Africa. The U.S. troops landed first because the Allies believed that the French would be less likely to fire on them than the British, because of the "hatred" (Walter Cronkite's word) they bore for the Brits. To be sure, the lower the rank, the less this attitude prevailed. And in the end, when the Allies moved east to Tunisia, French colonial forces joined them. all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com But not before firing on US and UK ships and troops. The French, in a typically French action, changed sides as soon as they saw that they were on the losing end. France is an enemy country. Al Minyard |
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formed from prisoners in the USSR (following hitler's attack on it), thru
iran, iraq, palestine to egypt. "Cub Driver" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:48:52 +0100, "Keith Willshaw" wrote: To be fair some French colonial forces joined the British fighting the Germans and Italians long before Torch. Yes, that was mentioned in the CBS video. I didn't realize that they'd come from North Africa--thought maybe they'd been sea-lifted from Dunkirk and then moved around the Horn to Egypt. The video also mentioned Free Polish troops in the 8th Army. How did they get to Egypt? all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#59
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Fred J. McCall wrote in message . ..
(Kevin Brooks) wrote: :That would appear to be a restatement of an old maxim. True enough :that troops the world over do grumble; my mistake for using the word :"unique", as opposed to maybe "typical of". ISTR it was one of your fficers who was somewhat amazed that US troops tended to have to be :told the "why" of their orders, as opposed to the quaint "yes, sir, :three bags full, sir" type of response to which he was accustomed... US troops are trained to expect and get explanations of what they're doing and why. It's the only way they can intelligently fulfill their orders and know when initiative in the field is and is not appropriate. "Are trained"? No, Fred, this tendancy was established long before the more recent concentration on "auftragstactik" (or however the hell it is spelled in the original German). Comments on this date back to at least the First World War, and it was more a result of the US practice of depending upon citizen soldiers, along with the rather independent streak to be found in Americans who deplored the idea of being placed below anyone on a social, or for that matter military, ladder. ISTR reading that it is a trait shared with Aussie troops who frequently displayed it to their British superiors. Brooks |
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Speaking of the Free Polish units fighting in North Africa:
formed from prisoners in the USSR (following hitler's attack on it), thru iran, iraq, palestine to egypt. Thanks for that. I once knew a Polish woman in England who had traveled the same route as a girl: from Lvov to Siberia to Persia (I think that's Iran) to Egypt, thence to England where she had relatives. The story she told was this: that President Roosevelt swapped M-1 rifles for Poles, one rifle = one Pole. This could of course have been a wild tale based on her knowledge of Lend Lease, but it's interesting that she believed it. It never occurred to me that Stalin was in the business of swapping perfectly good soldiers to the west, even if there was a rifle in it! (Lvov I believe is now in Ukraine. Poland emerged from the war a bit smaller and shifted to the westward. At the time it was called "The Country on Rollerskates.") all the best -- Dan Ford email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9 see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
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