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#61
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Short Wings Gliders
So how many pilots can show up and expect on a good day to get a 3-5
hour XC flight in ? 7 gliders doesn't seem like enough for 80 pilots. Todd Smith 3S |
#62
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Short Wings Gliders
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), toad
wrote: Probably because in most US clubs, that $800 a year can only support the airport, towplanes, a couple of two seat trainers, a couple of low performance single seaters and maybe a ASK-21 or G-103. I know. We have ASK-21, DG-505, SF-34, Ka-8b, 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27, Dimona motorglider, DR-300 tow plane. To allow everybody to fly a LS-4 on the weekends would require maybe 1 LS-4 to 4 or 5 club members, if half of them showed up on the same day and all got to fly for 2-3 hours. Typical flying times in the club's gliders are shorter on a crowded day since there are about 3 to 4 pilots per glider per day. Average time per flight for ASK-21 basic training is about 15 minutes. So buying a $40,000 glider for 5 people would require a loan payment of $6000/year plus insurance/maint of $1000/year. Ignoring other expenses that still adds up to $1400/year/person. I assumed 10% interest for 10 years. So how does the math work out at your club ? It works. The key is winch launching. Income: 85 members, 370 Euro per year: 31.450 Euro Costs: Winch launch: 2.40 Euro Typical number of winch launches: 1.700 Total costs of winch launches: 4080 Euro Insurance for all gliders per year and other expenses: : 15.000 Euro. Profit per year: about 12.500 Euro. The tow plane just covers its costs. A little additional profit is generated by the club house, too (less than 2.000 Euro typically). Bye Andreas |
#63
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Short Wings Gliders
Andreas,
It is a mind-set in US clubs. First, hardly any clubs use winches and they must spend enormous amounts of money to own, operate, and insure tow planes. Second, there are few places where a winch could be used that are near a population area big enough to draw members to support a club; we see a turnover of about 15% of the membership every year. Third, we are busy, busy, busy in this country; we work longer hours and have more time constraints than Europeans (I think this has been proved), and this means that we want to show up, rig, fly, and leave without staying around all day to help others and to be a true club where people hang out and socialize with families. Most clubs don't have female pilots and wives and girlfriends grow tired of coming to a place where there is nothing for them to do or no one to socialize with. Fourth, all of this means we want our own equipment so that we can treat it as we wish without consulting others about it; this pride of ownership means that privately owned gliders are beautifully kept, for the most part, and club machines are "junk" in the words of a short-term (4 years) resident from Finland. At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote: On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad wrote: Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can afford their own sailplane? Hi Brad, I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's necessary to own a glider. Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly price that hardly exceeds $800. For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members. There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior. Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that. Bye Andreas |
#64
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Short Wings Gliders
At 17:56 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:34:56 -0800 (PST), Brad wrote: Maybe the younger generation and their quest for adrenalin laced activites would find competitive soaring compelling, but how many can afford their own sailplane? Hi Brad, I admit that - from a European point of view- I'm having difficulties to understand why most US based glider pilots think that it's necessary to own a glider. Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly price that hardly exceeds $800. For most clubs in Germany it's common nowadays that student pilots fly LS-4 or DG-300. Basic training is usually done in ASK-21 these days. Nearly any club clubs offer flapped ships (ASW-20, ASW-27) and state-of-the-art doubleseaters (Duo Dicus, DG-505) to its members. There is absolutely no interest in flying something inferior. Why isn't it possible to do that in the US? A couple of US clubs whose homepages I've seen seem to be able to do that. Bye Andreas Andreas, the problems in the US and Canada are two fold. Glider pilots per capita and as a result pilot density. Also an important differance is the individualistic approach in the US. There are a number of clubs that operate on the European model and are successful but there are not enough of them due to the points mentioned above. Here in Ontario Canada, with about 12M people, only two Clubs approach the European model. In Canada with 33M people we only have 1500 Glider pilots. I give you a personal example of the problem. When I started gliding in my mid forties I was established and I owned by then a house in a small town. The Club I joint was a 1hr drive away . The club had 35 members and 20 were mostly active. We had a Scout tow plane, a 2-33,a Blanik, a twin astir and a single astir. No club house and we did not own the field. Due to a serious of unfortunate events the club went belly up. I now became a roving pilot. The closest clubs were 3 and 4 hours way. In the end I did not join any club I became a member at large of the National club and joint the contest circuit. It was not ideal but still gratifying and enjoyable. Lucky for me I was able to pursue the hobby that way. Now That I will reduce my contest flying, I wish I had a club nearby. Selling the house and buying an other one near a club is out of the question. Well, it looks like I may to buy a used self launcher which is cheaper then moving. Regards Udo |
#65
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Short Wings Gliders
Andreas Maurer wrote:
Here in Europe by far most gliders are owned by clubs, making it possible for the club members to fligh latest technology for a yearly price that hardly exceeds $800. $800 ist *very* optimistic. It may be true for your club, but it certainly isn't typical, not even in Europe. I flew around 100 hours on club gliders last year, typically on LS8 or DG1000, fully equiped with LX5000. (Ok, on some days when many pilots showed up I had to take an LS4, which is our low-end glider...) All my flights were cross country and usually I had a glider for my own for the whole day (or a double seater with a second pilot). This cost me around $4500 (beer not included). Which is still much less than the annual cost I would have to pay for my own glider. And we launch exclusively by aerotow. |
#66
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Short Wings Gliders
On Jan 29, 11:25*am, toad wrote:
On your last point. *If you can figure out how to make ANY type of sailplane truly affordable (say $20,000 for new) then the sport might start growing like crazy. *But there seems no way to build a glider that cheap. Todd, Brad and I have that one absolutely wired. There is a way, and the way is clear. All it takes is a modest amount of hands-on assembly doing stuff that you can learn how to do in a few evenings. The puzzling human comedy there is how few people stay interested when you tell them they need to learn a few new skills. And we're not even talking about skills that are truly new, they are all things that my grandmother did. It's, like, ohes noes, new skillez, you be stealin' my bukkit! /lols Thanks, Bob K. |
#67
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Short Wings Gliders
At 18:33 30 January 2009, toad wrote:.
So how does the math work out at your club ? Include consideration of what it costs for you to use the field, and any assistance you get from the government. Remember that in the US soaring is purely a private endeavor, as are most art forms, with no subsidy from anybody. Jim Beckman |
#68
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Short Wings Gliders
At 19:23 30 January 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
In my club: Unlimited number of flights and hours, typically the fleet of 7 gliders does around 2.100 flights per year with about 1.700 hrs in average. In average 85-90 active pilots. So that sounds like around 12 active pilots per glider, with unlimited hours. How do you manage contention for the gliders on the weekends? Jim Beckman |
#69
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Short Wings Gliders
On Jan 30, 4:05*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jan 29, 11:25*am, toad wrote: On your last point. *If you can figure out how to make ANY type of sailplane truly affordable (say $20,000 for new) then the sport might start growing like crazy. *But there seems no way to build a glider that cheap. Todd, Brad and I have that one absolutely wired. There is a way, and the way is clear. All it takes is a modest amount of hands-on assembly doing stuff that you can learn how to do in a few evenings. The puzzling human comedy there is how few people stay interested when you tell them they need to learn a few new skills. And we're not even talking about skills that are truly new, they are all things that my grandmother did. It's, like, ohes noes, new skillez, you be stealin' my bukkit! /lols Thanks, Bob K. Bob, I've been following the HP-24 pages for a while. I can't see creating a HP-24 in a "modest" amount of time, but send me the brochure ! I would be very excited. Todd |
#70
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Short Wings Gliders
At 19:32 30 January 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Lower cost and more interesting sports like hang gliding and paragliding that have been particularly strong in the USA. Another point is competition from power flying, which is a much more attractive proposition in the US. I believe I'm correct in thinking that flying power in most of Europe is much more expensive (and more highly restricted) than in the US. Jim Beckman |
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