Advice on buying a 152?

I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in
it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money
to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine
in a few years.

I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some
numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of
earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even.

I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the
idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew
one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun.

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

Thanks!

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

A bit high for a 152, no?

And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a
lease-back arrangement.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.


A bit high for a 152, no?

And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a
lease-back arrangement.

Thanks for the reply. Is that high? I'll have to do some more research.
I realize I'm not going to make any money. I'm mainly hoping to offset
the majority of the maintenance and insurance. So for me the purpose of
the leaseback arrangement is to make it more affordable to keep the
plane, not so much to make a profit.

I know one. He has had a plane at the same school for years, and always
made money. I know of a few others who are certainly making money. And
this is over the past 3 years with the doubling of insurance.

Funny, he was hard to get to talk about it. Also, the other winners were
hard to get hold of. Now the guys who don't make money are quick to talk
about it, and how it was anyone's but there own fault. I listened to the
guy that was making money, and even though I took a different approach, I am
doing okay.

I bought a new plane, and still have a nearly new plane. Could not have
done it without the leaseback. I have the option to take the plane off the
line, add extra's and refurb it to better than new. And I would still be
ahead so long as I avoid recapture. Avoiding recapture is simple enough, so
that's not a problem. I put all the tax rebates back into the bank loan and
refinanced, and now my payments are in the used plane range.

I will likely continue this year and trade up next year, and start over if
they still have the bonus. It all depends on if the hours go up in the
plane, or if I can sell my plane close to asking. If not, I can leave it at
the school and hope the hours increase a bit, or I can take it out, fix it
up, and have a plane I could not affford.

If you can create a business use and get depreciation without a leaseback,
then you may be better off. If you can afford the plane you want, then why
bother? If the plane you want is out of your reach you can make it work.




"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Wqvyc.1890$Hg2.18@attbi_s04...
Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

A bit high for a 152, no?

And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a
lease-back arrangement.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"rajek" wrote in message
m...
I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in
it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money
to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine
in a few years.

SNIP

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

Without much more info. on condition,avionics,etc. I
would tend to feel the price is high.

My brother bought a new Piper Archer ll some years ago and had a
leaseback with a local FBO.He was not
happy with others flying the plane.Renters are not as careful as owners.He
had to schedule time in his plane
and could not use it if someone else had already scheduled it for that
time.He did not offset enough of the expenses to make it worthwhile and gave
up the leaseback after a while. YMMV

A 152 is going to be used heavily by new students.They do not always
land softly.:-)

I bought a 1966 150 in excellent condition for $18,000
and have been a happy camper.

Bob Barker N8749S


I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

Thanks!

Right now, you have insufficient information to make that decision.

$28K seems high, compared to the fleet average of 152's. Condition and
equipment are everything in the plane market. 600 hrs on the engine isn't
bad, but it could be better. How many airframe hours? Most 152's have much
higher hours than 150's do, because most were purchased in the go-go days of
flight training in the late 70's.

You mentioned nothing of the avionics. Granted, you can't stuff too much in
a 152, but if you have brand-new Bendix KX 155's in it, with a KLN 94 IFR
certified GPS or a Garmin 430, and you're beginning to total up some bigger
bucks.

You need to see what's out there. Check www.aso.com or www.controller.com to
see the general price ranges for your year and number of hours and
equipment.

If you're getting serious, get an online subscription to Trade A Plane. It's
relatively cheap compared to the paper copies. On their website (with
subscription) they have a very good appraisal tool that lets you spec your
exact plane's equipment, airframe, paint, and interior condition.

Carl


"rajek" wrote in message
m...
I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in
it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money
to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine
in a few years.

I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some
numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of
earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even.

I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the
idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew
one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun.

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

Thanks!

Thanks for the reply. Is that high? I'll have to do some more research.

Good answer.

Your best bet is Trade-a-plane on-line. Watch the ads, do your homework. I
think you'll find many, many 152s for less than $28K.

Check the panel carefully -- the price difference may be found there. At
your level of experience this won't be easy -- avionics can be a real can of
worms. Your best bet is to ask a trusted, experienced pilot friend for
help.

Given that many new pilots like yourself don't have mentors (a real, serious
problem in aviation, by the way), you may be left to fend for yourself. If
this is the case, your workload just doubled or tripled. Here's what you
should do:

Find out what avionics are in the plane, and post your results here --
you'll find a wealth of knowledge and experience here, and we'll be able to
help you assess the panel. (For a real assessment of condition, you'll need
an avionics tech of course -- but we can get you in the ballpark.)

Find out total time on the airframe in addition to engine time. Ask about
damage history -- many trainers have some.

Don't just look at this single aircraft -- 152s are literally everywhere.

Make friends with a mechanic that other guys on the field recommend -- this
person will be your life-line, and the guy who ultimately does your pre-buy
inspection. Do NOT buy this plane without a pre-buy inspection, performed
by someone other than the current owner's A&P.

Come here often and ask questions -- we all began where you are today, and
many of us learned some hard, expensive, and probably unnecessary lessons
along the way.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"rajek" wrote in message
m...
Jay Honeck wrote:

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.


A bit high for a 152, no?

And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a
lease-back arrangement.

I realize I'm not going to make any money. I'm mainly hoping to offset
the majority of the maintenance and insurance. So for me the purpose of
the leaseback arrangement is to make it more affordable to keep the
plane, not so much to make a profit.

Wow, thanks a lot for the advice and suggestions. It sounds as though a
leaseback is risky but it can work OK in the right circumstances.
("Work" defined as substantially offsetting expenses, not necessarily
making a profit.) The club owner did talk with me about some of the
factors that affect the plane's earnings -- season, upgrades, cosmetics
and so on.

I'll do some more research and post again when I have more information.

Thanks!

Leaving alone the price (which seems high) ask why the club will lease
off you. Interest rates are very low. They could borrow cheap and buy it.
Could it be that leaving you to carry the risk, the maintenance, the
abuse, the rebuilds, the AD's and the whatever else you can thik of is a
better deal for them? You bet it is!
Think about it. They want an aircraft, to put a student in, and let that
student pound it into the runway over and over and over until such time
as they learn to land it. (And once they do learn to land it, that
student will transition to THEIR aircraft, and a new one will start over
in yours. Add to that that they won't have a clue how to lean it -
Welcome to the stuck valve club/melted cylinder club, and they look
around and see you, with your hand up, begging them to use your airplane
to do it all in. Meanwhile, we have the seller telling you that his
aircraft is worth a whole lot more than comparable models, and is using
this arrangement to justify it as an income stream.

I guess the best advice that I can give you is turn around and walk.
When you find the plane that is right for you, you won't even consider
allowing that kind of abuse.

HTH

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE



In article ,
rajek wrote:

I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in
it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money
to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine
in a few years.

I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some
numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of
earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even.

I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the
idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew
one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun.

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

Thanks!

Oh yea..

Be VERY wary/cautious of a club, school or operator that encourages YOU
to buy a plane for the purpose of them leasing it back from you,
particularly if they also perform the maintenance in-house and bill it
to you.

Dave

rajek wrote:
Wow, thanks a lot for the advice and suggestions. It sounds as though a
leaseback is risky but it can work OK in the right circumstances.
("Work" defined as substantially offsetting expenses, not necessarily
making a profit.) The club owner did talk with me about some of the
factors that affect the plane's earnings -- season, upgrades, cosmetics
and so on.

I'll do some more research and post again when I have more information.

Thanks!