Hypothetical Scenario #1 - Urgent Action required

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:01:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I've been thinking this would be a fun scenario to practice on a BFR, to give the student (who will surely appreciate it) practice at handling an emergency that really isn't an emergency. When the student checks airbrakes on his/her downwind checklist (what downwind checklist? Ah, on the second flight then!), I grab the airbrakes and say "the airbrakes just stuck open." And shut up. Now the student's job is to quickly plan a full airbrake plus slip pattern. It's not a real emergency, because we can always close the airbrakes. Has anyone tried this? UH, font of all wisdom on such things? John Cochrane

Stuck or frozen open dive brake condition is part of our pre solo training. It does happen in the Winter.
UH

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 10:54:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:01:32 AM UTC-5, wrote: I've been thinking this would be a fun scenario to practice on a BFR, to give the student (who will surely appreciate it) practice at handling an emergency that really isn't an emergency. When the student checks airbrakes on his/her downwind checklist (what downwind checklist? Ah, on the second flight then!), I grab the airbrakes and say "the airbrakes just stuck open.." And shut up. Now the student's job is to quickly plan a full airbrake plus slip pattern. It's not a real emergency, because we can always close the airbrakes. Has anyone tried this? UH, font of all wisdom on such things? John Cochrane Stuck or frozen open dive brake condition is part of our pre solo training. It does happen in the Winter. UH

Recover from the spin, land, post ship on wings and wheels.

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 8:01:32 AM UTC-8, wrote:
I've been thinking this would be a fun scenario to practice on a BFR, to give the student (who will surely appreciate it) practice at handling an emergency that really isn't an emergency.



When the student checks airbrakes on his/her downwind checklist (what downwind checklist? Ah, on the second flight then!), I grab the airbrakes and say "the airbrakes just stuck open." And shut up. Now the student's job is to quickly plan a full airbrake plus slip pattern. It's not a real emergency, because we can always close the airbrakes.



Has anyone tried this? UH, font of all wisdom on such things?



John Cochrane

I've done the "stuck open" and "stuck shut" landings for non-emergency "emergency" practice, but situations such as this fall in a bit different category and are excellent winter (or anytime) fodder for thought. Thanks. Would like to see more such. Visualizing one's actions under such conditions can help if such an actual in-flight condition occurs. I wonder if Condor can simulate such an event?
Eric Bick

All very good answers. I thought someone might mention direction of turns by now. With the one airbrake open it may be very hard to raise that wing again in a turn if it is the low side wing. Wouldn't it be wise to fly the pattern with the spoiled wing on the high side of the turns? ie - if your right airbrake is open you would want to do a left hand pattern? I would hate to get to pattern altitude and discover I can't raise my wing with the broken airbrake out after making the first turn...

Bruno -B4

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:54:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:01:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Stuck or frozen open dive brake condition is part of our pre solo training. It does happen in the Winter.

UH

Yup. Both stuck open and stuck closed patterns are in the syllabus for both initial and recurrent training at my club that does ab initio training. I also go over this in BFRs. FWIW, stuck closed (maybe never connected during assembly) is actually a much bigger issue in a typical, modern glass ship.

P3

A thought not mentioned -- is the "spin" really a spin? With one spoiler out, are you not just in an uncommanded turn, or spiral dive? Spiral dive vs. spin confusion is suggested in a few recent accident reports, and several manuals say spins will turn in to spiral dives on their own. Proper recovery depends on what is really happening.

John Cochrane

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 10:01:32 AM UTC-6, wrote:
I've been thinking this would be a fun scenario to practice on a BFR, to give the student (who will surely appreciate it) practice at handling an emergency that really isn't an emergency. When the student checks airbrakes on his/her downwind checklist (what downwind checklist? Ah, on the second flight then!), I grab the airbrakes and say "the airbrakes just stuck open." And shut up. Now the student's job is to quickly plan a full airbrake plus slip pattern. It's not a real emergency, because we can always close the airbrakes. Has anyone tried this? UH, font of all wisdom on such things? John Cochrane

I think it is an excellent thing to do, John. As you say, you always have the ability to "undo" the issue should the pilot react poorly. But, it is a really good way to assure the person is thinking about how to get where they want, and not just flying a ground track.

Steve Leonard

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:10:39 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:54:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:01:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:



Stuck or frozen open dive brake condition is part of our pre solo training. It does happen in the Winter.



UH



Yup. Both stuck open and stuck closed patterns are in the syllabus for both initial and recurrent training at my club that does ab initio training. I also go over this in BFRs. FWIW, stuck closed (maybe never connected during assembly) is actually a much bigger issue in a typical, modern glass ship.



P3

I got a PM asking why stuck closed is a bigger issue in the pattern. Briefly, because a) modern ships are not all that easy to "dirty up" with a slip and b) they will float forever in ground effect, especially with any excess speed. I routinely practiced slipping my LS4 and LS8 to landings (note: POH has a specific caution on doing this with divebrakes deployed), and it requires pretty aggressive use of rudder and a reasonable amount of "touch". I also managed to float almost the entire length of Mifflin airport (over 4,000 feet) one day with zero spoilers from about 10 feet and 55kts. That's like 400:1 including the tradeoff of 15kts or so to get down to a 40kt touchdown. For someone not prepared for the float, they could easily end up trying to force the glider on at a higher speed - see "flopping fish syndrome" and "broken gear bulkhead".

P3

We actually have the stuck spoiler approach as a standard review item on our Field checkouts. I practiced several "stuck-spoiler" approaches in my training and I always have my students do it.

I think the one-out would also be a great training scenario, but both not possible or a particularly responsible thing to do.

Mike

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:44:05 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
We actually have the stuck spoiler approach as a standard review item on our Field checkouts. I practiced several "stuck-spoiler" approaches in my training and I always have my students do it. I think the one-out would also be a great training scenario, but both not possible or a particularly responsible thing to do. Mike

Stuck out and stuck in are both scenarios commonly used during the practical test by our local examiner.
UH