Glider Crash Argentina

On Friday, February 28, 2014 9:27:22 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:

I think back to the one time when I dinged an airplane.

Great story P3.

The insidious part: if you are tired, stressed, getting more and more behind the curve in your decisions, losing situational awareness, you are very unlikely to recognize this mental state and its dangers in the air. In my mishaps -- no damage so far thank goodness -- I have been amazed on reviewing the flight to see myself getting further behind the curve, and not noticing it.

On one flight, 600 miles at Mifflin ending with a difficult transition and final glide, I literally couldn't get out of the cockpit I was so exhausted at the end. But did not recognize that state when doing the last glide.

I'm trying to build in an alarm bell that notices this mental state and jogs me in to a "do something NOW" to cut off the inevitable. Something like, in your situation, stopping and doing a pattern to a good field from 1000 feet.

John Cochrane

Thanks, Erik and John, for talking openly about stress related piloting skill degradation. It's a very valuable discussion because it isn't brought up much, and thus most pilots don't know to guard against it. Here's a couple of things that happened to me because of things I didn't know.

One was during a downwind off-field landing, which was going well until on very short final I saw a single wire electric fence across my flight path. I overflew the fence, but then needed to do a ground loop to stop before hitting some rapidly approaching trees. Problem was, I hadn't ever been told how to ground loop properly. I did unload the tail to avoid over stressing it, but I didn't raise the low wing aileron, and the 6 inch long grass destroyed it. What I needed to know was that if you ever have to do an intentional ground loop, you must move the stick like you're doing a diving turn.

The second occurred while trying to land at a small grass farmers airstrip. I'd never seen it in person, but it was in my turn point file because it had showed up on Google Earth. The problem was, it had been abandoned since the last time the GE photo had been taken. What I learned from that was it's a good idea at the beginning of the season to take a drive to verify small airstrips are still in existence.

-John, Q3

"comes at a time when South to north, passing WIRES and returns again
to the south but increasingly low, too low .... then we realized that
something was wrong"

wires, possibly another contributing factor.

She was on a tight final glide flying together with another glider
with a highly experienced pilot

It occurs to me that being in a tight situation with a highly experienced pilot may not be a good thing. In such a situation, "flying together" may involve a bit of mentoring, which in my experience works great at altitude. But in a "tight final" situation, I would hate to be in the mind set where I am using queues from a more experienced pilot as part of my decision making. I don't know the facts about this tragic flight, but handling a sticky situation requires 100% of a pilot's skills and focus, and in a tight situation, it seems to me a teammate, mentor or protege may be more of a liability than an asset.

I know little about team flying, and less about this particular accident, but I would think that extra-conservative margins would benefit team flying especially with pilots with different levels of experience.

Rob

On Saturday, March 1, 2014 9:01:08 AM UTC-5, Robert Dunning wrote:
She was on a tight final glide flying together with another glider with a highly experienced pilot It occurs to me that being in a tight situation with a highly experienced pilot may not be a good thing. In such a situation, "flying together" may involve a bit of mentoring, which in my experience works great at altitude. But in a "tight final" situation, I would hate to be in the mind set where I am using queues from a more experienced pilot as part of my decision making. I don't know the facts about this tragic flight, but handling a sticky situation requires 100% of a pilot's skills and focus, and in a tight situation, it seems to me a teammate, mentor or protege may be more of a liability than an asset. I know little about team flying, and less about this particular accident, but I would think that extra-conservative margins would benefit team flying especially with pilots with different levels of experience. Rob

Good point Rob.
Letting an experienced pilot lead you into situations that pilot can handle but you can't is easliy done.
UH

Excellent points guys. This thread is an example of how much we can learn from an accident even if we don't know or are wrong on the details. This is what I like about RAS. You wouldn't find any of these in an NTSB report. I learned a lot from this thread.

Ramy