Co-pilot gets sick, stewardess helps land airplane

On Jun 22, 11:06*am, Mxsmanic wrote:

You would not get these specifics from flying a Cessna 172, even in real life
(nor would you get them from flying only the C172 in the sim).

But you never been in a real plane. How do you know this?????????

As far as that goes, the FAA has no control over the certification or
inspection of military aircraft, in any way. They just have to put up
with the fact that the military does what they want with the aircraft
they own.

With one clarification the above matches what I have learned. The
clarification: when military aircraft fly in U.S. airspace, except for
military emergencies related to national defense, they are indeed
subject to FAA flight rules. E.g. hemispheric flight altitude rules, VFR
rules, airspace requirements, and so on. Flight safety would be highly
compromised if there was not a single final authority.

Indeed, they follow FAA requirements to how they use the airspace.

Note in my comments, I was carefull to say that the FAA does not have any
control over _certification or inspection_ of military aircraft.

I guess when I said "the military does what they want with the aircraft they
own" that could be interpreted to how and where they fly them in FAA
airspace, but I was intending to speak to the physical aircraft, not how
they are flown.
--
Jim in NC

On Jun 23, 5:21*am, Mxsmanic wrote:

In the future, I suspect that pilots will be trained without any time in a
real aircraft, mainly to save money.

Just when you think he couldn't get any sillier he does.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:26:18 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Hatunen writes:

Nor can it realistically
simulate the feeling of aiming the plane at a real runway and
trying your best to grease the wheels on, but instead coming in a
bit high and trying to force the plne down to the runway without
bouncing too much.

Actually it does that rather well.

Your computer chair bounces?
As us8ual you deleted an important part of my post....

"In some fairness, it should be said that some computer
simulators perform pretty well, but it also has to be said that a
simulation on a PC can never be very realistic. It is far
different sitting in a real cockpit with a real yoke and real
pedals operating real ailerons, elevators and rudders."

.... which makes it clear I am talking about PC simulators.

A PC can never simulate that feeling in the
pit of your stomache when teh plane hits a downdraft and loses
2000 feet just like that.

Like many private pilots, you think of flight in terms of physical sensations.
This is only one of many possible interpretations, however.

You've never flown a plane. I have. The physical sensations can
be important when they occur, as they can distract from clear
thinking. A stall simulated on a PC can not ever accurately
convey the, um, thrill, of a full stall (especially your first
full stall as a student pilot) as you keep pulling back on the
yoke/joystick pointing the noise higher and higher as the stall
warning screams and then, WHAM!, the nose of the plane is pointed
downward, seemingly straight down at the ground, gaining speed
rapidly. The first time I did tht for my isntructor it scared the
crap out of me. (The plane itself is important here; our old
Piper J-3 would snap a stall break like you wouldn't believe,
real Six Flags sort of thing, while the Cessnas are a bit more
forgiving, and some light planes are designed to not break in a
stall at all but to simply lsoe altitude.)


A PC can not give you the feel of a plane as it is slowed to
stall speen with the stall warning blaring and the plane
shuddering a little. Andalthough they no longer teach it, a PC
cannot simulate the quiet but scary feeling f being in a spin and
the slight panic as you try to bring it out of that spin.

Since they no longer teach it, doesn't that mean that there are no longer any
Real Pilots? How can you know anything about a spin without spinning in a
real aircraft?

And the PC can not simulate the visual context of a real plane
where the instruments are spread out; you'd have to keep your
nose pretty close to the monitor to simulate this.

Actually, the PC can do this, with the right add-ons.

As to Mixie's apparent idea that somehow his PC is a good
emulation of a big-time simulator, where the cockpit layout is
very close to the appearance of the craft's real cockpit and
where the hydraulics on the simulator can create most of the
bumps and jerks of real flight, that is downright ludicrous.

I guess you haven't been flying or simming much recently. The cockpit layout
of the sim is realistic enough that you may not recognize it as a sim at first
glance. It's not difficult to display photo-realistic visuals, after all.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:26:18 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Hatunen writes:


Andalthough they no longer teach it, a PC
cannot simulate the quiet but scary feeling f being in a spin and
the slight panic as you try to bring it out of that spin.

Since they no longer teach it, doesn't that mean that there are no longer any
Real Pilots? How can you know anything about a spin without spinning in a
real aircraft?

Well, my instructor, who insisted on teaching spins to me
although no longer required for certification said there weren't
any more real pilots.

I guess you don't have to know how to recover from a spin if you
don't spin.

And the PC can not simulate the visual context of a real plane
where the instruments are spread out; you'd have to keep your
nose pretty close to the monitor to simulate this.

Actually, the PC can do this, with the right add-ons.

Like an add-on dual monitor? I fail to see how a PC can
realistically give the sensation of an instrument panel over two
feet across.

As to Mixie's apparent idea that somehow his PC is a good
emulation of a big-time simulator, where the cockpit layout is
very close to the appearance of the craft's real cockpit and
where the hydraulics on the simulator can create most of the
bumps and jerks of real flight, that is downright ludicrous.

I guess you haven't been flying or simming much recently. The cockpit layout
of the sim is realistic enough that you may not recognize it as a sim at first
glance. It's not difficult to display photo-realistic visuals, after all.

Unless your computer chair can bounce up and down and lean left
and right, it's not the same.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

No, it is not unless the simulator is so realistic it is impossible to
tell the difference between the simulation and reality and such simulators
do not exist.

The simulator need only provide more information than no information, which
every simulator does. The simulator provides information specific to an
aircraft that real-world experience in a different aircraft does not.

Delusional babble.

Flying a real airplane requires a broad set of skills and knowledge which
is why in the real world the individual skills are taught in varied
environments best suited for teaching the task at hand, i.e. the cockpit of
a C172, a desk, a light twin, a 747 simulator, a real 747, to name just a few.

There is knowledge (and sometimes skill) specific to individual aircraft that
must be acquired before that aircraft can be successfully flown.

True, and in most cases, if the aircraft are anywhere near similar, a reading
of the aircraft manual will suffice for that.

And I've actually done that, have you?

The specifics
of a 747 are not learned by someone flying a C172.

True, but no one but you and your tunnel vision of what is required to fly
an airplane is saying that.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
Hatunen writes:

But you're still required to actually fly a plane to get
certified.

That is a regulatory rather than a practical restriction. And you only need a
very small number of hours of flight in a real aircraft.

In the future, I suspect that pilots will be trained without any time in a
real aircraft, mainly to save money.

Delusional.

Tell us: does the simulator simulate a stall?

Yes.

Sure it does, including the feeling of falling when the stall breaks and
the increased G load as you pull out.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
Hatunen writes:

Nor can it realistically
simulate the feeling of aiming the plane at a real runway and
trying your best to grease the wheels on, but instead coming in a
bit high and trying to force the plne down to the runway without
bouncing too much.

Actually it does that rather well.

Delusional.

The view looks like a flat screen and there is no peripherial view.

A PC can never simulate that feeling in the
pit of your stomache when teh plane hits a downdraft and loses
2000 feet just like that.

Like many private pilots, you think of flight in terms of physical sensations.

The physical sensations of a downdraft are real in real airplanes and you
have to learn to deal with them to fly real airplanes.

A PC can not give you the feel of a plane as it is slowed to
stall speen with the stall warning blaring and the plane
shuddering a little. Andalthough they no longer teach it, a PC
cannot simulate the quiet but scary feeling f being in a spin and
the slight panic as you try to bring it out of that spin.

Since they no longer teach it, doesn't that mean that there are no longer any
Real Pilots? How can you know anything about a spin without spinning in a
real aircraft?

Wrong.

Yes spins are still taught, they are just not a requirement for private.

And the PC can not simulate the visual context of a real plane
where the instruments are spread out; you'd have to keep your
nose pretty close to the monitor to simulate this.

Actually, the PC can do this, with the right add-ons.

Sure if you have a 360 degree wrap around display.

Do you?

As to Mixie's apparent idea that somehow his PC is a good
emulation of a big-time simulator, where the cockpit layout is
very close to the appearance of the craft's real cockpit and
where the hydraulics on the simulator can create most of the
bumps and jerks of real flight, that is downright ludicrous.

I guess you haven't been flying or simming much recently. The cockpit layout
of the sim is realistic enough that you may not recognize it as a sim at first
glance. It's not difficult to display photo-realistic visuals, after all.

Since it is all on a small (compared to even a C150 panel) 2 dimensional flat
screen, only someone delusional could not immediately tell it is a display.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

True, and in most cases, if the aircraft are anywhere near similar, a reading
of the aircraft manual will suffice for that.

Why would reading the manual be sufficient, but simulation not?

And I've actually done that, have you?

Yes, I have.

writes:

Sure it does, including the feeling of falling when the stall breaks and
the increased G load as you pull out.

It doesn't simulate motion. Motion is only one small part of flying.