Mustang Collision Oshkosh

"Blueskies" wrote in message
...

The news story said it may be a father and son team...

Sad...

A father and son team flew in the demonstration. The son is the surviving
Mustang pilot, the father was flying a Corsair and was not involved in the
collision.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:41:28 -0700, "Gattman"
wrote:


http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c


OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture...

Update:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/ind...07d b116a5449

Wahpeton man killed after planes collide at air show
Kim Winnegge, The Forum
Published Saturday, July 28, 2007

A Wahpeton, N.D., man died Friday after performing in a Wisconsin air
show.

Gerald Beck, 58, died after the plane he was flying collided with one
flown by Casey Odegaard, 24, of Kindred.

The men each were flying P-51 Mustangs, single-seat fighters used
during World War II, at the experimental air show in Osh Kosh, Wis.,
officials said.

My condolences to the family of the deceased pilot.

Not enough data to second guess what happened but I have hundreds of
formation landings in the P-51.

The procedure was for leader of flight to land on the down wind side
of the runway. That way any prop wash would not blow across the runway
and into the #2 as he flared or touched down.

Also the #1 man landed as close to the edge of the R/W as he could
(wing over the R/W lights on narrow R/w's) and the #2 landed as far to
the other side of R/W as he could to give maximum clearance between
the wings if an overrun took place.

The #2 would use the radio and tell the #1 that he was down and had
his bird under control and was not overrunning the #1. If the #2 was
over running #1 then he told #1 and #1 put on power to give more
clearance.

In the three years I flew the bird I don't remember any overruns in
the FTRGP. This was on narrow WWII Japanese runways (75 Ft) to wide
R/W's (200 ft) we built.

Does anyone know if the birds pitched or flew a rectangular pattern?

Basic procedure is you have the air speed and touch down under control
and no overruns.

Comments on this Dudley?

Big John

************************************************** ****




On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:41:28 -0700, "Gattman"
wrote:


http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c


OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture.
The FAA says the accident with the two P-51 Mustangs happened at shortly
after 3pm, after the planes finished a performance at the Experimental
Aircraft Association's show.

Investigators with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are
investigating.

The last fatal crash at EAA Airventure happened last year on July 23. A
Washington state couple was killed when their single engine, home-built
plane crashed on approach at Whittman Regional Airport.

Big John wrote:
My condolences to the family of the deceased pilot.

Not enough data to second guess what happened but I have hundreds of
formation landings in the P-51.

The procedure was for leader of flight to land on the down wind side
of the runway. That way any prop wash would not blow across the runway
and into the #2 as he flared or touched down.

Also the #1 man landed as close to the edge of the R/W as he could
(wing over the R/W lights on narrow R/w's) and the #2 landed as far to
the other side of R/W as he could to give maximum clearance between
the wings if an overrun took place.

The #2 would use the radio and tell the #1 that he was down and had
his bird under control and was not overrunning the #1. If the #2 was
over running #1 then he told #1 and #1 put on power to give more
clearance.

In the three years I flew the bird I don't remember any overruns in
the FTRGP. This was on narrow WWII Japanese runways (75 Ft) to wide
R/W's (200 ft) we built.

Does anyone know if the birds pitched or flew a rectangular pattern?

Basic procedure is you have the air speed and touch down under control
and no overruns.

Comments on this Dudley?

Big John

Just saw the complete film of the crash.
Runway 36 at Oshkosh is 150 feet wide as I remember it. The 2 Mustangs
were dissimilar; a D flown by Odegard, and an A, flown by Beck. Beck was
the trailer to the left and behind the D through touchdown.
They were trying to execute a section landing. The D looked normal to me
on final airspeed wise. He touched down on the mains and was fairly tail
high in his roll out. His tailwheel hadn't settled in before he was hit.
Beck looked a bit hot to me. There definitely (obviously) was a closure
rate through the landing. It looked to me as though Beck was hot and
just a bit long through his landing....not much, but he had overtake.
Beck's right wingtip looked like it impacted the left horizontal
stabilizer on the D. There must have been a strong positive pitch moment
induced as they hit. The D pitched forward violently right through the
prop and onto the spinner where it dug in hard. I can't explain the
behavior of the A other than an involuntary pitch input on the stick by
Beck as he felt the impact. His right wintip must have been under the
D's stabilizer to cause the violent pitchup and over to inverted
suffered by the A. The A pitched up hard and to the right and went in
inverted behind the D. It looked like Beck must have been killed instantly.
These things happen so fast you can be looking right at them and even
with an experienced eye, not be seeing what actually happened.
I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the
film , the section looked too tight for a section landing with Mustangs.
Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing
a positive closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...


I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a
section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive
closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques


It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1.
That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe
stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed.

What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time?

Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...

I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a
section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive
closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques


It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1.
That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe
stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed.

What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time?




2 planes are a section; 4 a flight.
Normally for jets, or as is the case for nose wheel airplanes generally,
you do a section landing with the wingman directly back but not stacked
down. You touchdown with lead and maintain position through the roll out.
For tail wheel airplanes this is a whole new ball game because of the
peripheral visibility cues and lack of visibility directly over the nose
through touchdown. This issue is especially present in Mustangs.
I have never advocated section landings in Mustangs for civilian pilots
for the above reasons.
It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote

It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's
doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet
between them.

I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time.

Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go.
--
Jim in NC

Jim

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes
the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never
got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

As Dudley said and I agree, civilian pilots flying the '51 should not
attempt formation landings. Their life and the bird are too precious.
Confed Air Force also say the same thing per Dudley.

On the "A" model of second bird. Did someone put an allison engine in
it? Did it have a bird cage or bubble?

I hope everyone realizes that we were not there and are making
comments from the little data available.

On the word section, Element is also used. I think Section came from
the Brits??????. Both are two planes. Four birds are a flight composed
of two elements. Leader and his wing man are #1 & #2. On the other
side matching #2 is #3 and on his wing is #4.

If the flight goes into echelon, then #3 moves out from close
formation with #1 and #2 moves under #1 over to the other side and
flight is then #1,#2,#3 & #4. This formation is normally used so that
each bird can break out behind the smaller numbered bird into the
landing pattern. #4 is tail end charlie )

This leads to another War Story. One time I was in a 48 ship echelon
of P-80's (A's & B's) and leader turned into the echelon to get lined
up for the pass over the field. I was about #20 and cut donut holes in
my drawers. What #48 did I don't know. The tail end got snapped like a
whip. They got back in some semblance of an echelon before the pass
over field I was told )

We then went and did some acrobatics. In the loops they were like a
cork screw with birds ahead coming down at the same time trailing
birds were going up starting their loop.

Later the leader doing some tight turns and ask #48 how he was doing
and #48 in a strained voice used to combat 'G's said "I'm doing OK Sir
" )

In my career in the AAC/USAF I made 3 ship formation take offs and
landings only during Basic training (on grass field) in the T-6 (we
were a experimental group that flew the T-6 in both Basic and
Advanced). After we proved the point they took the BT-13 out of basic
and every one flew the T-6.

In the formation landings you flew tight formation and could see the
ground behind the leader and you never knew when you were going to hit
the ground and then transition from flight to 'ground hog' ( We also
shot hurdle stages in the T-6. Would drag it over the rope with the
little flags so you could see it and just before going over you
chopped the throttle. As the bird started to sink you put in full up
elevator and after making the hard Navy landing from 15 feet with
brakes locked you stopped in 100-150 feet. Tires just skidded on the
grass so you didn't nose over.

We didn't know better in those days to not do some of the things we
would not do today.

Dudley. Where did you see the full important part of the pattern
through the accident? Can you give me the URL?

Keep um flying.

Big John

************************************************** *******************




On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 00:52:45 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote

It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's
doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet
between them.

I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time.

Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go.

Big John wrote:

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes
the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never
got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at Oshkosh
must have been total losers to crash doing something so simple.

"Big John" wrote in message ...
Jim


On the "A" model of second bird. Did someone put an allison engine in
it? Did it have a bird cage or bubble?


Keep um flying.

Big John



It had the three bladed prop so I assume Allison engine and the bird cage fastback fuselage...