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#11
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Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually
fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or Wg commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for. But sure as hell not warrant officers.Give up a commision for a lower rank? Beyond my comprehension in 1945 or at any other time. Well, this is a different generation I guess. . Arthur Kramer There is always the story of Michael Novosel, who was a B-24 and B-29s during WW2, and was an reserve USAF LTC and wanted to go back to active duty and fly when the Vietnam unpleasentness started, even though he was old enough to retire USAF would not let him, so he went to the army as a warrant officer, learned to fly helicopters, and flew 2345 medivac missions and earned the CMOH. Ron PA-31T Cheyenne II Maharashtra Weather Modification Program Pune, India |
#13
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions From: 362436 (Ron) Date: 6/18/04 9:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Obviously, Art is stuck in 1945. Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually fly lead or be the first over the target today. In fact, every Grp or Wg commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly lead. Thats what they have senior captains and majors for. But sure as hell not warrant officers.Give up a commision for a lower rank? Beyond my comprehension in 1945 or at any other time. Well, this is a different generation I guess. . Arthur Kramer There is always the story of Michael Novosel, who was a B-24 and B-29s during WW2, and was an reserve USAF LTC and wanted to go back to active duty and fly when the Vietnam unpleasentness started, even though he was old enough to retire USAF would not let him, so he went to the army as a warrant officer, learned to fly helicopters, and flew 2345 medivac missions and earned the CMOH. Ron PA-31T Cheyenne II Maharashtra Weather Modification Program Pune, India That is very inspirational. The guy won the Medal--it sure as hell should be inspirational. The poser did not mention that Novosel also flew at least part of a combat tour with his son in the same outfit, IIRC. Unlike you, Novosel was not unduly impressed by his own rank, and found that both flying and duty mattered more to him than the trappings and privaledges of rank--I can see where you would find these qualities completely alien, though. Where do I sign up. Think there are any B-26's with Nordens left? Every Lt. Col after full combat tour should turn warrant officer and fly another tour. But only after a full combat tour is completed. Desks jockeys not invited. Let's see, did YOU complete a "full combat tour"? I have never heard you mention completing your tour and being rotated back stateside while the war was ongoing--so I guess you are no better than that desk jockey, eh? Brooks Arthur Kramer |
#14
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"BUFDRVR" wrote in message ... Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually fly lead or be the first over the target today. Not true. In fact, every Grp or Wg commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly lead. Hmmm, every group or wing commander I've known was a fully qualified instructor not only capable of leading a formation or acting as a mission commander, but capable of training others to do so. Then we've been in different "real Air Forces". |
#15
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Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
From: "M. J. Powell" Date: 6/18/04 3:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: In message , ArtKramr writes snip If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.Keep your commission. Never throw away success. That last sentence is absolutely right. I did it once ( don't ask ) and have regretted it for 40 years. I can't comment on the main problem. Mike -- M.J.Powell And you are not dead yet. You may have another 30 or more years to keep regretting it. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#16
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Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions
From: (BUFDRVR) Date: 6/18/04 7:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Sq, Grp, and Wg commanders don't usually fly lead or be the first over the target today. Not true. In fact, every Grp or Wg commander I've worked for since 1986 wasn't qualified under AF regs to fly lead. Hmmm, every group or wing commander I've known was a fully qualified instructor not only capable of leading a formation or acting as a mission commander, but capable of training others to do so. BUFDRVR As anyone who has flown in an active combat group knows all too well. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#17
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In article ,
on 18 Jun 2004 04:11:27 GMT, ArtKramr attempted to say ..... Subject: resign commission for warrant officer questions From: (1LT 15B in AH-64D) Date: 6/17/04 4:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: I am a 1LT in the Army National Guard, an Aviator, and I would like to go on active duty. I have done some research and my options are to apply to the Active Guard and Reserve or enter as a warrant. I have been surrounded by warrants and I like them and there responsibilities are real important and it would be a great honor to be counted in their ranks. I cannot find out if I have to go to WOC school or not. I have been to Federal OCS at Benning and a Federal Law Enforcement Academy. I am interested in finding out if I have to attend yet another candidate school. I hear it both ways but no AR has been pointed out that states the facts definitively. Thanks for your help. If you resign your commission you will never be a squadron commander, or a group commander or a wing commander. You will never fly lead and have the thrill of being the first over the target or the first to hit the enemy.Keep your commission. Never throw away success. We don't have those in Army Aviation any longer Art. And most of the flying is done by warrants -- When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant. |
#18
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Ragnar wrote:
Then we've been in different "real Air Forces". I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things, but I can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in nearly every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force. LeMay, as Group commander led his group in its part in the Scweinfurt-Regensberg mission, so it appears senior leaders have been leading combat strikes since at least WWII. Billy Mitchell flew in the St. Mihel offensive, and he was the second ranking U.S. aviator in France. I'm not doubting your experience, just curious as to what time period we're comparing here? BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#19
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On 19 Jun 2004 03:39:49 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:
I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things, but I can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in nearly every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force. The question was asked by a guy in army aviation. Does the army have wing commanders? I think I understand what he's after, besides getting on active duty. (Good for him!) He wants to fly too, perhaps. What for a career path does an army (commissioned) officer have in aviation? Forty years ago all helicopter pilots were WOs, but I believe that's no longer true. Indeed, I seem to recall a father-son team later in the Vietnam war, where dad was an officer and son was a WO. all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org |
#20
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"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... On 19 Jun 2004 03:39:49 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote: I'm puzzled. Granted, I'm relatively "new" in the big scheme of things, but I can recall squadron, group and yes wing commanders leading flights in nearly every conflict since the birth of an independant Air Force. The question was asked by a guy in army aviation. Does the army have wing commanders? I think I understand what he's after, besides getting on active duty. (Good for him!) He wants to fly too, perhaps. What for a career path does an army (commissioned) officer have in aviation? Forty years ago all helicopter pilots were WOs, but I believe that's no longer true. Indeed, I seem to recall a father-son team later in the Vietnam war, where dad was an officer and son was a WO. I don't believe the Army has ever had an exclusively WO flying force; commissioned officers did indeed fly helos forty years ago. But the majority of the pilot force has been, and continues to be, provided by the WO side of the house. And I believe your recollection is a bit off--the father-son team you refer to was probably the Novosel's, where the father had indeed at one time been a commissioned officer (former B-29 pilot) who later took a warrant to fly helos for the Army; he and his son were both WO's, both flying Dustoff UH-1H's in Vietnam in the same unit, IIRC. As Ron noted earlier, the senior Novosel was awarded the MoH for action during that conflict. He died eight or ten years ago, again IIRC. Brooks all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org |
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