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  #121  
Old January 31st 18, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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He's reviewing all traces on a thunderstorm day to see if anyone logged a little unauthorized IFR time ............yes, this happened! I reported it, but nothing was done and by the end of the week at least 4 guys did it...........I know because they told me they iced up!
Sorry about my little rant, I feel much better now,
JJ


Cloud flying isn't a big deal for those, like me, who learned to fly in Britain and South Africa where it is permitted. I still do it occasionally when safe to do so.

Here in the USA, my observation in contests is that no-one observes required FAR minima around clouds - in a strong thermal every pilot will keep climbing until their upper wing disappears into the wispies. I have seen many pilots enter cloud, including climbing into them, flying through them, over them and round them! Although against the rules (and possibly dangerous) it is almost never punished.

Perhaps the rules committee could come up with a formula to deal with this little problem (a challenge for our dismal scientist!).

Mike
  #122  
Old January 31st 18, 05:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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The RC did partially address flying too close to clouds, at least pre start.. The top of the start gate is supposed to be set 500 feet below cloudbase. CDs don't frequently follow the guidance. Out on course.. well, there is no way to do this as simple as the hard deck. And, let's not invent problems that aren't there. In the wispies before start is indeed a problem. There have not been any accidents due to misbehavior of this sort on course, nor any charges that people are winning contests by seriously dangerous behavior. Not perfect, but let's leave well enough alone.

Where this is contentious is the ban on cloud flying instruments. Start a new thread if we want to tear that one up some more.

John Cochrane
  #123  
Old January 31st 18, 05:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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John Good's very clever and very simple "worst day scoring adjustment" allowed you effectively to drop a day, but in a way that worked with devaluation. It was in the rules for many years, but nobody ever used it, so it got dropped in a simplification effort. If any contest wants to try it, the rule is sitting there and implemented in the scoring program, so ask for a waiver. I won't explain again here how it works, but yes it does take in to account day devaluation, and short contests.

John Cochrane
  #124  
Old January 31st 18, 07:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:07:14 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.


The reason I don't enter a race at the local ski hill is "I don't know how to do that safely". It's nothing to do with the sport, which although clearly dangerous, is "safe enough" in the hands of the appropriately skilled.. If there isn't a large element of this in the responses you have summarized... there probably should be. Not all racing venues are beginner friendly.

There are many ways that you could create a beginner friendly racing environment in e.g. the Sierras, and you have suggested a few yourself. If anyone is inclined to do this, why not give it a try on a non-sanctioned basis? There's no need to change the rules for the rest of the world for this.

Or perhaps your friends just aren't interested in racing.

Evan Ludeman / T8


Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves. The pilots I have asked will (and often do) fly the same terrain on the same day - they aren't beginners and this is not beginner terrain where we fly. Several have participated in a few races, then quit doing so because they felt they needed to violate their minimum safety criteria to have any chance. You can't have it both ways: "if you don't like it don't race" and "we want more people to race".

The idea that folks should show up, pay the entry fee, take the time off, just to participate for fun using a different standard of safety with the knowledge that this will make them uncompetitive isn't attractive to a lot of pilots. They can go fly and have a nice cross country day anytime, anywhere, without any of that.

By keeping the sport confined to your definition of pure, you are making it vanish. In almost all speed sports, rules have been put in place to curtail extreme behavior for the sake of fair and safe competition. Why is soaring so different?
  #125  
Old January 31st 18, 07:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim White[_3_]
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At 02:15 31 January 2018, Michael Opitz wrote:

George Moffat and the sailing crowd have always proposed to drop
both the individual pilot's best and worst days because "that's what
they do in sailing". You might be able to do that in a Grand Prix
format where each day counts the same. I don't see how we can do
that as long as we have devalued days. A pilot can be a day winner
on a very difficult 600 point day, and be forced to drop his
day win because all of the other contest days weren't devalued,
even though he had another day where he only got 850 points
compared to that other day's winner?

Please tell me how you propose to make that fair?? I can't see it
being done without a total overhaul of the scoring system.

RO

I have never understood why a difficult day gets devalued. Seems to me that
difficult days are a better test of skill.

Devaluation also has the effect that CDs try to set 3 hour tasks. Why if
the window is short?

Not devaluing days would remove some complexity and IMO improve
competitions!

Jim

  #126  
Old January 31st 18, 08:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Clay[_5_]
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Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves. The pilots I have asked will (and often do) fly the same terrain on the same day - they aren't beginners and this is not beginner terrain where we fly. Several have participated in a few races, then quit doing so because they felt they needed to violate their minimum safety criteria to have any chance. You can't have it both ways: "if you don't like it don't race" and "we want more people to race".

The idea that folks should show up, pay the entry fee, take the time off, just to participate for fun using a different standard of safety with the knowledge that this will make them uncompetitive isn't attractive to a lot of pilots. They can go fly and have a nice cross country day anytime, anywhere, without any of that.

By keeping the sport confined to your definition of pure, you are making it vanish. In almost all speed sports, rules have been put in place to curtail extreme behavior for the sake of fair and safe competition. Why is soaring so different?


P3 has floated the idea of skill/experience-based classes. When I road-raced motorcycles, that was the system. It is fun to race against people of similar experience, and not be getting stuffed by the fast guys in every corner. The trophies come quicker too. In soaring, even in Sports Class, you'll be competing against WGC caliber pilots. Kinda exciting, but not so much when you get smoked by 20 mph. But I don't know if we really have the level of participation to do this kind of format, or even if it would solve anything.
  #127  
Old January 31st 18, 08:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:12:45 PM UTC-5, Clay wrote:
Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves. The pilots I have asked will (and often do) fly the same terrain on the same day - they aren't beginners and this is not beginner terrain where we fly. Several have participated in a few races, then quit doing so because they felt they needed to violate their minimum safety criteria to have any chance. You can't have it both ways: "if you don't like it don't race" and "we want more people to race".

The idea that folks should show up, pay the entry fee, take the time off, just to participate for fun using a different standard of safety with the knowledge that this will make them uncompetitive isn't attractive to a lot of pilots. They can go fly and have a nice cross country day anytime, anywhere, without any of that.

By keeping the sport confined to your definition of pure, you are making it vanish. In almost all speed sports, rules have been put in place to curtail extreme behavior for the sake of fair and safe competition. Why is soaring so different?


P3 has floated the idea of skill/experience-based classes. When I road-raced motorcycles, that was the system. It is fun to race against people of similar experience, and not be getting stuffed by the fast guys in every corner. The trophies come quicker too. In soaring, even in Sports Class, you'll be competing against WGC caliber pilots. Kinda exciting, but not so much when you get smoked by 20 mph. But I don't know if we really have the level of participation to do this kind of format, or even if it would solve anything.


that's how you learn man! nothing like going and flying the same task as sarah arnold, and she beats you by 5MPH raw speed in her ASW15 while you flew a discus CS. makes you feel like the biggest idiot in the world!

an old saying comes to mind: "if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room." basically i disagree with skill or experience based contest classes outside of the current separation (regionals vs. nationals). i feel like it will inhibit personal growth as pilots. i know that i became a better pilot by flying against pilots who were better than i am. matter of fact, i'm still doing it. safely completing a regional's gives you all the tools you need to fly safely in a nationals. and all of us a responsible to sit out a mission we aren't comfortable with, or that we feel is outside of our capacity to handle. i see it all the time. people sat out certain ridge tasks at the sports class nationals this past year. in my first contest, i didn't attempt one of the tasks, because i thought the cloud was too low for me to be comfortable.
  #128  
Old January 31st 18, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:12:45 AM UTC-8, Clay wrote:
Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves. The pilots I have asked will (and often do) fly the same terrain on the same day - they aren't beginners and this is not beginner terrain where we fly. Several have participated in a few races, then quit doing so because they felt they needed to violate their minimum safety criteria to have any chance. You can't have it both ways: "if you don't like it don't race" and "we want more people to race".

The idea that folks should show up, pay the entry fee, take the time off, just to participate for fun using a different standard of safety with the knowledge that this will make them uncompetitive isn't attractive to a lot of pilots. They can go fly and have a nice cross country day anytime, anywhere, without any of that.

By keeping the sport confined to your definition of pure, you are making it vanish. In almost all speed sports, rules have been put in place to curtail extreme behavior for the sake of fair and safe competition. Why is soaring so different?


P3 has floated the idea of skill/experience-based classes. When I road-raced motorcycles, that was the system. It is fun to race against people of similar experience, and not be getting stuffed by the fast guys in every corner. The trophies come quicker too. In soaring, even in Sports Class, you'll be competing against WGC caliber pilots. Kinda exciting, but not so much when you get smoked by 20 mph. But I don't know if we really have the level of participation to do this kind of format, or even if it would solve anything.


To be clear, experience is not the issue in the pilots I mention. However the local racing events run at our glider port are handicapped by pilot skill. (I can hear the gasps and harrumpfs already.) It isn't a perfect system, but gives the hope - and sometime the reality - that a less experienced pilot can win or place. It is self correcting in that the handicap is increased with wins or places so it becomes harder to win as the pilot goes faster.. This makes everyone try harder. This has definitely increased participation as it challenges everyone, skilled and novice.

The original notion of sports class was to keep the high rated pilots out, but that got thrown away in the interest of filling the grid.
  #129  
Old January 31st 18, 09:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Clay[_5_]
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that's how you learn man! nothing like going and flying the same task as sarah arnold, and she beats you by 5MPH raw speed in her ASW15 while you flew a discus CS. makes you feel like the biggest idiot in the world!

an old saying comes to mind: "if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room." basically i disagree with skill or experience based contest classes outside of the current separation (regionals vs. nationals). i feel like it will inhibit personal growth as pilots. i know that i became a better pilot by flying against pilots who were better than i am. matter of fact, i'm still doing it. safely completing a regional's gives you all the tools you need to fly safely in a nationals. and all of us a responsible to sit out a mission we aren't comfortable with, or that we feel is outside of our capacity to handle. i see it all the time. people sat out certain ridge tasks at the sports class nationals this past year. in my first contest, i didn't attempt one of the tasks, because i thought the cloud was too low for me to be comfortable.


I basically agree with everything you've said (and have been beaten, repeatedly, by Sarah in that 15), the question is is there a pool of pilots out there who are not competing, but would if there were skill-based classes. I doubt it, but might be worth exploring if we haven't already.
  #130  
Old January 31st 18, 09:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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"Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves" from up-thread.

First off, I have no dog in this fight. I have never entered a competition and, likely, never will. I can't comment on the safety aspect and how that would impact my decision to race. I did fly in the back seat with KS once at a regional and found the whole thing to be an awesome experience and not the least bit worrying from a safety standpoint. I even thought, "I should give this racing thing a shot." Then, the real reason I don't race woke me from my fantasy. I simply don't have the time or the money to dedicate a week to when the whole thing (or a significant portion thereof) might be a washout. I submit that the cost in both time and money is what keeps the droves of glider pilots at their home airports, not safety. That may convince people to stop racing but I doubt it impacts their decision on whether or not to start. Sorry for the thread drift.
 




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