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motorgliders as towplanes



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 8th 09, 06:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brad[_2_]
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Posts: 722
Default motorgliders as towplanes

I know this has come up before in RAS. But thought I would bring up
the subject again.

For a club looking at long term projections, which at some point will
include either sticking a "new" engine on a Pawnee or getting rid of
it, does it make sense to start evaluating getting a 2 place
motorglider to serve as a tug and also as a touring/training tool?

Can a MG tug pull a loaded 2 place Blanik on a standard day at SL,
from a 1800' grass strip? Or perhaps such a tug could be used to tow
the members single place ships, and the heavier/ 2-place ships stow
behind the clubs remaining pawnee?

We are blessed with 3 towplanes in our club, there are upcoming
factors that will/are causing us to look at several different
scenarios and am wondering if tossing a MG into the mix might be one
such solution.

Brad
  #2  
Old March 8th 09, 06:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan[_6_]
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Posts: 162
Default motorgliders as towplanes

On Mar 8, 10:03*am, Brad wrote:
I know this has come up before in RAS. But thought I would bring up
the subject again.

For a club looking at long term projections, which at some point will
include either sticking a "new" engine on a Pawnee or getting rid of
it, does it make sense to start evaluating getting a 2 place
motorglider to serve as a tug and also as a touring/training tool?

Can a MG tug pull a loaded 2 place Blanik on a standard day at SL,
from a 1800' grass strip? Or perhaps such a tug could be used to tow
the members single place ships, and the heavier/ 2-place ships stow
behind the clubs remaining pawnee?

We are blessed with 3 towplanes in our club, there are upcoming
factors that will/are causing us to look at several different
scenarios and am wondering if tossing a MG into the mix might be one
such solution.

Brad


I recently flew a Lambada and was very impressed with it's take off
and climb performance. We didn't tow any gliders so I can't report on
that. I flew the 80 HP version. We were at sea level, two 200+lbs
guys and only 80 HP, takeoff and climb performance seemed to be better
than a Super Cub. The 80 HP version isn't used for towing but the 100
HP version is. It is reported to have about as good as a 150 HP Super
Cub performance in towing. The Lambada soared pretty well, I was
really impressed. The L/D is claimed to be about 30/1 and that seemed
about right while gliding between thermals. It's a well thought out
little machine.
Check out Urban Air USA. My demo ride was with the very sailplane
experienced pilot Jim Lee. Great guy and a great team.

good luck,
Dan
  #3  
Old March 8th 09, 06:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default motorgliders as towplanes

On Mar 8, 10:03*am, Brad wrote:
I know this has come up before in RAS. But thought I would bring up
the subject again.

For a club looking at long term projections, which at some point will
include either sticking a "new" engine on a Pawnee or getting rid of
it, does it make sense to start evaluating getting a 2 place
motorglider to serve as a tug and also as a touring/training tool?

Can a MG tug pull a loaded 2 place Blanik on a standard day at SL,
from a 1800' grass strip? Or perhaps such a tug could be used to tow
the members single place ships, and the heavier/ 2-place ships stow
behind the clubs remaining pawnee?

We are blessed with 3 towplanes in our club, there are upcoming
factors that will/are causing us to look at several different
scenarios and am wondering if tossing a MG into the mix might be one
such solution.

Brad


You don't say what type of motorglider you are thinking of (seems even
sustainers count as motorgliders if you believe Soaring Magazine)

But having said that there is not one touring (i.e. non pylon style)
motorglider I can think of that I'd want to tow behind in any
sailplane, well certainly not a two place glider. A Kstana or
something with a big engine might be able to tow a light glider but it
is not going to touch a good Pawnee or simmilar and so what then you
are left with a not great tug and a not very good XC trainer (or XC
anything). But I don't understimate how the appeal of being flexible/
multi-purpose and doing something clever/different might just suck
people in...

As a self-launch motorglider owner in general I tend to think good XC
trainers do *not* have motors. Think Duo Discus or DG-1000S class two
seater. Motorgliders are compelx and expensive to operate and most
have more vices than a modern two-seater, so you are not going to let
newer pilots (the very ones you want to be encouraging to go XC) go
fly them solo etc. And if you only do dual in that glider and send
them solo in an a conventional glider you are sending the XC student/
mentoree a very bad signal.

Motorgliders can be great for some things, inluding orientatiion
flights, etc. but you can also do those in a two place power plane.

Darryl
  #4  
Old March 8th 09, 07:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig Lowrie
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Posts: 32
Default motorgliders as towplanes

We spent quite some time looking at this. We currently have 2xPawnee 235's
and a Super Cub 180. We also have a Falke 2000 motorglider. Normally we
only need on tug, except on busy periods when we occationally need two.
The motorglider is underutilised, so the idea of a motorglider that can
tow seemed attractive.

To keep operations simple, we assumed that one of our Pawnees would be
servicable, so that the Motorglider could tow single seaters (which is
usually the cause of our peak demand), and therefore the utilisation of
the motorised fleet would increase and we would need one less aircraft.

Initially we evaliated the 100hp fixed pitch Rotax Falke. It did tow, but
seemed a bit marginal from our operation. Also it needed careful
management of the engine temperature to avoid long term issues.

Then we looked at the Grob 109 Turbo. This gives about 130hp for the
initial takeoff and was substantially better than the Falke whilst still
delivering economy which was more than two times better than the Pawnee. I
would say that it was the best we looked at and also better than the super
dimona, which we also studied briefly.

In the UK a G109T has been towing from a grass strip for almost two years
now, towing a variety of single and two seat gliders (including duo's
etc) and has very few problems, I understand.

The concept is certainly worth considering. In the meantime, we continue
to watch developments, as well as plans to re-engine Pawnees with 230hp
Diesel Engines.

Craig Lowrie, UK

At 17:28 08 March 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Mar 8, 10:03=A0am, Brad wrote:
I know this has come up before in RAS. But thought I would bring up
the subject again.

For a club looking at long term projections, which at some point will
include either sticking a "new" engine on a Pawnee or getting rid of
it, does it make sense to start evaluating getting a 2 place
motorglider to serve as a tug and also as a touring/training tool?

Can a MG tug pull a loaded 2 place Blanik on a standard day at SL,
from a 1800' grass strip? Or perhaps such a tug could be used to tow
the members single place ships, and the heavier/ 2-place ships stow
behind the clubs remaining pawnee?

We are blessed with 3 towplanes in our club, there are upcoming
factors that will/are causing us to look at several different
scenarios and am wondering if tossing a MG into the mix might be one
such solution.

Brad


You don't say what type of motorglider you are thinking of (seems even
sustainers count as motorgliders if you believe Soaring Magazine)

But having said that there is not one touring (i.e. non pylon style)
motorglider I can think of that I'd want to tow behind in any
sailplane, well certainly not a two place glider. A Kstana or
something with a big engine might be able to tow a light glider but it
is not going to touch a good Pawnee or simmilar and so what then you
are left with a not great tug and a not very good XC trainer (or XC
anything). But I don't understimate how the appeal of being flexible/
multi-purpose and doing something clever/different might just suck
people in...

As a self-launch motorglider owner in general I tend to think good XC
trainers do *not* have motors. Think Duo Discus or DG-1000S class two
seater. Motorgliders are compelx and expensive to operate and most
have more vices than a modern two-seater, so you are not going to let
newer pilots (the very ones you want to be encouraging to go XC) go
fly them solo etc. And if you only do dual in that glider and send
them solo in an a conventional glider you are sending the XC student/
mentoree a very bad signal.

Motorgliders can be great for some things, inluding orientatiion
flights, etc. but you can also do those in a two place power plane.

Darryl

  #5  
Old March 8th 09, 08:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default motorgliders as towplanes

On Mar 8, 1:03*pm, Brad wrote:
I know this has come up before in RAS. But thought I would bring up
the subject again.

For a club looking at long term projections, which at some point will
include either sticking a "new" engine on a Pawnee or getting rid of
it, does it make sense to start evaluating getting a 2 place
motorglider to serve as a tug and also as a touring/training tool?

Can a MG tug pull a loaded 2 place Blanik on a standard day at SL,
from a 1800' grass strip? Or perhaps such a tug could be used to tow
the members single place ships, and the heavier/ 2-place ships stow
behind the clubs remaining pawnee?

We are blessed with 3 towplanes in our club, there are upcoming
factors that will/are causing us to look at several different
scenarios and am wondering if tossing a MG into the mix might be one
such solution.

Brad


I remember reading about a Pipistrel Sinus motorglider towing an LS8
to 2400 feet AGL in 6 minutes in Italy.............
I assume that a lighter gliders should climb even better!
There is also a video on Youtube showing a Lambada motorglider
towing a double seater metal glider.
The Sinus with an 80 HP Rotax
The Lambada with a 100 HP Rotax
Motorgliders will tow into the future!!!!!
Maybe at 3 gallons an hour car fuel.



  #6  
Old March 8th 09, 08:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Robert Danewid
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Posts: 25
Default motorgliders as towplanes

In Sweden it is quite common to use Super Dimonas as tugs and we tow two
seaters with no problem. Climb rate is like a 150 hp PA-18. But the
ground run is a bit longer.

The big advantages are less fuel consumption and that that you can tow
with a gliding license only.

Robert
ASW 28-18E
RD


Brad skrev:
I know this has come up before in RAS. But thought I would bring up
the subject again.

For a club looking at long term projections, which at some point will
include either sticking a "new" engine on a Pawnee or getting rid of
it, does it make sense to start evaluating getting a 2 place
motorglider to serve as a tug and also as a touring/training tool?

Can a MG tug pull a loaded 2 place Blanik on a standard day at SL,
from a 1800' grass strip? Or perhaps such a tug could be used to tow
the members single place ships, and the heavier/ 2-place ships stow
behind the clubs remaining pawnee?

We are blessed with 3 towplanes in our club, there are upcoming
factors that will/are causing us to look at several different
scenarios and am wondering if tossing a MG into the mix might be one
such solution.

Brad

  #7  
Old March 8th 09, 10:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
brianDG303[_2_]
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Posts: 161
Default motorgliders as towplanes

I'm struggling with a similar question, and it relates to rebuilds. I
guess different rebuilds cost very different amounts, and it seem that
a Pawnee rebuild is $35K and a little more. Could it be that a cheaper
to rebuild tow plane could be a better choice?

  #9  
Old March 8th 09, 11:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_4_]
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Posts: 165
Default motorgliders as towplanes

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:29:37 -0700, brianDG303 wrote:

I'm struggling with a similar question, and it relates to rebuilds. I
guess different rebuilds cost very different amounts, and it seem that a
Pawnee rebuild is $35K and a little more. Could it be that a cheaper to
rebuild tow plane could be a better choice?


Seems to me that you need to total up several factors:
1) The cost of replacing/rebuilding the tow plane
2) The cost of insuring the replacement for the time you'll keep it
3) The total operating cost for the time you'll keep it, i.e. include
both overhauls/part replacement as well as fuel and oil.

Then calculate the total cost per annum of each course of action.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #10  
Old March 9th 09, 12:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default motorgliders as towplanes

On Mar 8, 3:23*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:29:37 -0700, brianDG303 wrote:
I'm struggling with a similar question, and it relates to rebuilds. I
guess different rebuilds cost very different amounts, and it seem that a
Pawnee rebuild is $35K and a little more. Could it be that a cheaper to
rebuild tow plane could be a better choice?


Seems to me that you need to total up several factors:
1) The cost of replacing/rebuilding the tow plane
2) The cost of insuring the replacement for the time you'll keep it
3) The total operating cost for the time you'll keep it, i.e. include
* *both overhauls/part replacement as well as fuel and oil.

Then calculate the total cost per annum of each course of action.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |


SO let's make it an even dozen.

Some other things that apply to all choices (including the Pawnee...)

4) who will maintain the tow plane, what experience on type/model do
they have and how many others doing similar things are available to
learn/get help from?
5) Vendor/product risk - a risk factor for chance the vendor will go
out of business or there will be a nasty AD etc. (yes nastier than the
spar mounts on Pawnee, and yes this risk applies to Pawnees etc. as
well)
6) Parts risks/costs - for some models where the vendor is no longer
making them, what is the risk parts won't be available, will be hard
to find or will be expensive to fabricate if at all possible? (And yes
this risk applies to Pawnees etc. as well, but is reduced somewhat by
their wide use)
7) Operational limitations - find out how whatever you are looking at
tows on the days you need to, on the surfaces, at the temperatures and
density altitudes etc. (e.g. more than a few motor gliders have
cooling issues when it gets hot outside).
8) The expected TBO of the engine - I'd be pretty cautious about
assuming anything based on published TBOs - in general and especially
if the motorglider is towing. I'd go talk to real owners who have been
doing something similar. I have a lot less confidence in the engines
in some of these motorgliders doing as well there say compared to a
Lycoming in a Pawnee - but that is just my bias, unconfirmed by
reality either way. Bear in mind that with towing you may be putting a
lot more time on the engine than others so you'll be the canary in the
coal mine.
9) The utility at all of the motorglider as a XC glider/training
glider (you may just maintain it as a tow plane).
10) Insurance costs, pilot experience requirements and other issues. I
have no idea there, but I'd be calling my insurance agent early on in
the process (like now). Especially if some of the desire is to get
glider pilots with a motorglider endorsement towing - I cringe a bit
at that unless those folks have some power experience and/or a lot of
time in the motorglider.
11) Experimental category issues (if it's an experimental motorglider)
in the USA - I'd expect you would run into issues towing with
motorglider with an contest and exhibition certification.
12) You need to know that a tow release system is available or what
one involve/will cost to put through as a 337 only (if the FSDO would
do that?) and what issues that involves. One of the appeals of the tow
setup on many Pawnee's is the retractable tow rope. I'm guessing there
may not be space to install that in many motorgliders.

Anyhow just more brain food.

Darryl


 




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