Basic Training Gliders

Once upon a time there was the K13. It was/is a good
basic trainer that is safe and suitable for all basic
training needs, but over the years it has become less
suitable for teaching pilots to fly modern high performance
sailplanes. It is also draughty and noisy (my voice
usually gives up after a day's instructing in one due
to having to shout over the airleaks coming in around
the canopy) and not good at accomodating tall or heavy
pilots. As they are getting on a bit, we are no longer
permitted to teach aerobatics in them - at my club
anyway.

Then Schleicher replaced it with the K21 which in many
respects is much better, but it won't spin very convincingly,
if at all, which cuts out a very important element
of the training syllabus.

On the other hand, most of the East European trainers
spin far too well and too easily and can kill people.
Can't comment on American trainers, because I have
never flown one.

The advanced training requirement is very well covered
by such gliders as the Duo Discus, DG500/1000, ASH
25, but there doesn't seem to a modern equivalent of
the K13 for basic training! Unless anybody knows of
one that is?

Could I suggest the following specification:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.

Is there such a perfect training glider produced anywhere
in the World, or about to be? I am sure that there
is a market to be cornered if there is.

Derek Copeland

In article ,
Derek Copeland wrote:

Once upon a time there was the K13. It was/is a good
basic trainer that is safe and suitable for all basic
training needs, but over the years it has become less
suitable for teaching pilots to fly modern high performance
sailplanes. It is also draughty and noisy (my voice
usually gives up after a day's instructing in one due
to having to shout over the airleaks coming in around
the canopy) and not good at accomodating tall or heavy
pilots.

Yeah, I'm 1.8m (which is not that much) and 110 kg (ahem) and I have
trouble with full aileron in the K13.



Then Schleicher replaced it with the K21 which in many
respects is much better, but it won't spin very convincingly,
if at all, which cuts out a very important element
of the training syllabus.

Nice glider otherwise. As far as I know there are none here in NZ, but
I've flown ones in Arizona (Turf) and California (Cal City). Very
pleasant, though doesn't seem to perform as well as the Grob twins.


On the other hand, most of the East European trainers
spin far too well and too easily and can kill people.
Can't comment on American trainers, because I have
never flown one.

Me either, but the Blanik is a pretty good East European trainer. Same
sort of performance as the K13, spins well (the spin entries are
especially convincing from quite a "normal" attitude with the "wrong"
but gradual and gentle control inputs. Stops spinning well, every
single time.

You can still buy them new.


The advanced training requirement is very well covered
by such gliders as the Duo Discus, DG500/1000, ASH
25, but there doesn't seem to a modern equivalent of
the K13 for basic training! Unless anybody knows of
one that is?

Our club moved from Blaniks to Grob twins (original retractable Twin
Astirs, bought well used) about ten years ago, and they've served us
well, along with a Janus for more advanced training. We're now in the
process of moving to fixed undercarriage DG1000's, which appear to be
able to do everything the Grobs can do, everything the Janus can do
(except teach you flaps) and everything the Blanik can do (spins and
general aero).



Could I suggest the following specification:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.

Other than the fully aerobatic I think you just described the PW6. Or
the Puchacz (but I really don't know if I'd want to do extended spinning
in them, given the history).

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

"Derek Copeland" wrote in
message ...
Once upon a time there was the K13. It was/is a good
basic trainer that is safe and suitable for all basic
training needs, but over the years it has become less
suitable for teaching pilots to fly modern high performance
sailplanes. It is also draughty and noisy (my voice
usually gives up after a day's instructing in one due
to having to shout over the airleaks coming in around
the canopy) and not good at accomodating tall or heavy
pilots. As they are getting on a bit, we are no longer
permitted to teach aerobatics in them - at my club
anyway.

Then Schleicher replaced it with the K21 which in many
respects is much better, but it won't spin very convincingly,
if at all, which cuts out a very important element
of the training syllabus.

On the other hand, most of the East European trainers
spin far too well and too easily and can kill people.
Can't comment on American trainers, because I have
never flown one.

The advanced training requirement is very well covered
by such gliders as the Duo Discus, DG500/1000, ASH
25, but there doesn't seem to a modern equivalent of
the K13 for basic training! Unless anybody knows of
one that is?

Could I suggest the following specification:

1) Safe and easy to fly
2) Simple fixed gear undercarriage
3) Easy ground handling (our club is now buying retractable
gear DG1000s, but they are a complete pain on the ground)
4) Fully aerobatic, including good spinning characteristics
5) Must be capable of flying all the exercises in the
training syllabus
6) Enough performance to make reasonable cross-country
flights, but not so much as to make it difficult to
get students down.
7) Small enough for easy hangarage - wingspan not more
than 17 or 18 metres.

Is there such a perfect training glider produced anywhere
in the World, or about to be? I am sure that there
is a market to be cornered if there is.

Derek Copeland




I'd agree with all except the rigidly fixed gear. Even if not retractable,
I'd want some shock damping - my back hurts from all the student hard
landings. I'd also want really good visibility from the instructor seat.

Bill Daniels

This has been a bit slow to get to market, but $50K...XC not so hot
though
http://www.peregrinesailplane.com/
This fits most requirements and two-person rig/derig
http://jarek24.w.interia.pl/pw/pw6e.htm
See also
http://www.soargbsc.com/GBSC/Soaring...2002.05.21.htm

Frank Whiteley

Bill

PW-6U has what you want.

I'd agree with all except the rigidly fixed gear. Even if not retractable,
I'd want some shock damping - my back hurts from all the student hard
landings. I'd also want really good visibility from the instructor seat.

Bill Daniels


--
Charles Yeates

Swidnik PW-6U & PW-5
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

For the ASK-21 is a "spin-weight" available which can be installed on the
rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before deciding which weights to
add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you can also train spins.

CU
Markus

The PW-6 takes min pilot weight of 120lbs in front and up to 441lbs in
two seats with no ballast requirements. Spins too.

For the ASK-21 is a "spin-weight" available which can be installed on
the rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before deciding which
weights to add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you can also train spins.

CU
Markus

There are two approved methods of adding rear ballast to the K21 to move the
C. of G. aft.

It is possible to fit a lead ballast block in the rear fuselage just aft of
the fin spar, this is not intended to be fitted or removed between flights,
and of course the machine must be re-weighed..

It is also possible to have a hole through the fin to take a bar to carry
external ballast in the form of up to 10 x 1kg lead weights, which is
intended to be adjusted or removed between flights as required. See
"optional extras" on the specification sheet at
http://www.as-segelflugzeuge.de/englisch/e_main.htm , "Your Sailplane", "ASK
21", at the bottom of the page "Download Info:", "Specification ASK 21
(english)".

Both schemes are described in the owners' handbook. See also the
Schleicher AD and Technical notes
http://www.as-segelflugzeuge.de/englisch/e_main.htm "TN/LTA", "ASK 21" in
particular TN-No 4 &4a, see also "further TN/AD see overview (PDF)".

Note also that in common with all German gliders (as far as I know) the
minimum front cockpit weight is always shown as 70 kg (154 lbs). However
if the glider is carefully weighed it may be found that the minimum front
cockpit load calculated by moments when flown solo is less than this. Of
course the minimum front cockpit load calculated by moments will always be
reduced when there is a rear seat pilot, by an amount which increases as the
rear cockpit load is increased.

The importance of all this is that the glider will not hold a stable spin
unless the C. of G. is close to the aft limit (the numbers are in the
handbook), but you will be in trouble if you fly it with the C. of G. aft of
the aft limit.

Don't even think of trying for a full spin, or flying with the C. of G. well
aft unless you have read the pilots' manual AMENDED BY TN 23. The TN
itself is on the Schleicher web-site but the page amendments are not.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Markus Gayda" wrote in message
...

For the ASK-21 is a "spin-weight" available which can be installed on the
rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before deciding which
weights to add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you can also train spins.

CU
Markus

Buy a PW-6U and eliminate ballast needs :))

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:
There are two approved methods of adding rear ballast to the K21 to move the
C. of G. aft.

It is possible to fit a lead ballast block in the rear fuselage just aft of
the fin spar, this is not intended to be fitted or removed between flights,
and of course the machine must be re-weighed..

It is also possible to have a hole through the fin to take a bar to carry
external ballast in the form of up to 10 x 1kg lead weights, which is
intended to be adjusted or removed between flights as required. See
"optional extras" on the specification sheet at
http://www.as-segelflugzeuge.de/englisch/e_main.htm , "Your Sailplane", "ASK
21", at the bottom of the page "Download Info:", "Specification ASK 21
(english)".

Both schemes are described in the owners' handbook. See also the
Schleicher AD and Technical notes
http://www.as-segelflugzeuge.de/englisch/e_main.htm "TN/LTA", "ASK 21" in
particular TN-No 4 &4a, see also "further TN/AD see overview (PDF)".

Note also that in common with all German gliders (as far as I know) the
minimum front cockpit weight is always shown as 70 kg (154 lbs). However
if the glider is carefully weighed it may be found that the minimum front
cockpit load calculated by moments when flown solo is less than this. Of
course the minimum front cockpit load calculated by moments will always be
reduced when there is a rear seat pilot, by an amount which increases as the
rear cockpit load is increased.

The importance of all this is that the glider will not hold a stable spin
unless the C. of G. is close to the aft limit (the numbers are in the
handbook), but you will be in trouble if you fly it with the C. of G. aft of
the aft limit.

Don't even think of trying for a full spin, or flying with the C. of G. well
aft unless you have read the pilots' manual AMENDED BY TN 23. The TN
itself is on the Schleicher web-site but the page amendments are not.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Markus Gayda" wrote in message
...

For the ASK-21 is a "spin-weight" available which can be installed on the
rudder. Of course you have to weigh the pilots before deciding which
weights to add to the glider.

But then you have a very nice trainer with which you can also train spins.

CU
Markus

At 02:48 04 December 2005, Bill Daniels wrote:

'I'd agree with all except the rigidly fixed gear.
Even if not retractable,
I'd want some shock damping - my back hurts from all
the student hard
landings. I'd also want really good visibility from
the instructor seat.

Bill Daniels

I meant fixed gear in the sense of non-retractable,
rather than unsprung, so I totally agree with Bill
on that one. Also on the good visibility from the back
seat, which is another failing of the DG1000. The front
cockpit has a largish headrest that almost completely
blocks the forward view from the rear cockpit. In Europe,
because the DG1000 is certified by EASA, we are not
even allowed to remove it, as it is specified in the
type certificate! While a headrest may be an important
safety item in a car to protect you from whiplash in
a rear end shunt, I am still trying to work out in
what circumstances a glider might get rammed from behind?!!!!!!
Stupid F***ing Bureaucrats!

Can I add to my wish list easy two man rigging and
derigging and self connecting controls? Many current
trainers need about an eight man rigging team, which
is another disincentive to flying the things cross-country.

Derek Copeland