A question for the future

My prediction is that GPS will become a standard equipment in the
cockpit, and will replace the magnetic compass. Sure, the GPS can fail,
but those are technical issues which will eventually be solved, and the
GPS will become more reliable than a magnetic compass. My guess is that
it will be 10 years or more before it happens.

The concepts of magnetic variation and deviation arise entirely due to
our reliance on the magnetic compass. These will go away. We will not
rely on the magnetic north for navigation. We can use true north, which
will be a much cleaner system.

We would still need to calculate the effects of wind, not because of
wind correction angle, but for time enroute and fuel requirements.

The PTS does not demand that the applicant draw lines and do all the
calculations by hand. You can let a GPS do it, or use a computer. There
is no requirement that it be done by hand. Actually, it is high time we
stop focusing on that teach some of the modern ways of doing flight
planning. There are tons of online services and handheld computers that
can accomplish flight planning in a fraction of the time it takes to do
by hand.






(B25flyer) wrote in
:


Over a period of time aviation seems to make changes due to technical
advances. As such in the past certain "basics" of aviation that were
once written in stone have gone by the wayside.

So here is one for ya. Last week I started a student on the ground
school basics of cross country planing. Draw the line on the sectional
from airport to airport. Discuss all the wind, magnetic and other
variables etc. After about 20 minutes into the discussion the students
13 year old daughter who was intently watching asked the question.
"Why do all that when I can do the same thing in 30 seconds on the
handheld GPS and enroute it will take care of the wind correction"

Got me to thinking. So question is, what is the opinion of the troops
as to when the system will change and as part of the written/PTS for
any rating there will no longer be the requirment to draw the line and
figure out all the other stuff for the X-C portion of the test. Just
put in airports/waypoints and go for it.

Five years? Ten years? Or will it stick around forever?

Walt
Forty+ years as a CFI and still drawing lines on sectionals.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote

Troll.

You need to stick around for a bit longer, before you jump with a post like
this. I can assure you that the poster has been around for years, and is
not a troll.

Are you a troll?
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.762 / Virus Database: 510 - Release Date: 9/13/2004

Morgans wrote:
Troll.

You need to stick around for a bit longer, before you jump with a
post like
this. I can assure you that the poster has been around for years,
and is
not a troll.

The post is a troll.

The GPS vs. pilotage "debate" is the most classic aviation newsgroup
troll material.

Every experienced CFI knows the value of weather and pilotage skills.
No experienced CFI would seriously wonder when it's going away. The
guy is either not an experienced CFI, or he's trolling.
Are you a troll?

Only in appearance.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote

The GPS vs. pilotage "debate" is the most classic aviation newsgroup
troll material.

Every experienced CFI knows the value of weather and pilotage skills.
No experienced CFI would seriously wonder when it's going away.

In your opinion.

There *is* a difference in bringing up a subject for discussion (even if it
has been beat to death), and bringing up a subject that is put forth to make
other people mad. (or crazy)

The latter is a troll. (In my opinion) g
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.762 / Virus Database: 510 - Release Date: 9/14/2004

rom: "Brien K. Meehan"
Date: 9/16/2004 12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Morgans wrote:
Troll.

You need to stick around for a bit longer, before you jump with a
post like
this. I can assure you that the poster has been around for years,
and is
not a troll.

The post is a troll.

The GPS vs. pilotage "debate" is the most classic aviation newsgroup
troll material.

Every experienced CFI knows the value of weather and pilotage skills.
No experienced CFI would seriously wonder when it's going away. The
guy is either not an experienced CFI, or he's trolling.
Are you a troll?

Only in appearance.

Mr Meehan

The origional question was asked as a point of discussion. It was meant to be
answered by people that have some sense of civility and experience in aviation
when it comes to the training of pilots.

In the past 4 months I have taught 2 ground schools to over 50 students. Not so
much as a final end to passing the private written but to introduce people from
age 13 to one person in there 80s.to the basics of flight and navigation. I
have done this pro-bono, free, for nothing, not a damn dime, and in the case of
one class at the Sun N Fun camp in Lakeland contibuted some of the material.

Now as to why you want to mouth off and call me a troll is strictly up to you.
But let me assure you the question was meant to be answered by people that have
some sense as to what is going on in aviation when it comes to training
students to get from point A to B. The question by the students daughter made
for a point of discussion and there for I posted it to get some opinions and
not smart a** remarks. I appreciate the comments that have been made, except
yours, and found that most agree that a GPS might fail and pilotage might just
save someone's butt some day..

As for the question of IF it would ever be removed from the written or the PTS
it was only that.....a question.

As for you remarks about my experience as a CFI. Been one since 1965 and have
instructed in J3s to transports and have held 11 FAA issued Check Airman
letters.

No I dont advertise as a "World Famous Flight Instructor" but just try and
teach students the basics and impart some knowledge learned from 42 years of
aviating.I am not going to list my hours and ratings because there are people
on here that have more. I am not going to try and impress anyone on this group.


Just try and be a little civil when someone asks a question and dont let your
smart mouth prove that you might be the troll.

Walt CFI 1602574

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

My prediction is that GPS will become a standard equipment in the
cockpit, and will replace the magnetic compass. Sure, the GPS can
fail, but those are technical issues which will eventually be solved,
and the GPS will become more reliable than a magnetic compass. My
guess is that it will be 10 years or more before it happens.

To paraphrase this idea; your prediction is that a GPS, which has
thousands of components with complex relationships and therefore countless
failure modes will become more reliable than a magnetic compass which has
only one failure mode -- the loss of fluid.

I doubt it seriously.

Neil

"Neil Gould" wrote in
news
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

My prediction is that GPS will become a standard equipment in the
cockpit, and will replace the magnetic compass. Sure, the GPS can
fail, but those are technical issues which will eventually be solved,
and the GPS will become more reliable than a magnetic compass. My
guess is that it will be 10 years or more before it happens.

To paraphrase this idea; your prediction is that a GPS, which has
thousands of components with complex relationships and therefore
countless failure modes will become more reliable than a magnetic
compass which has only one failure mode -- the loss of fluid.

I doubt it seriously.

Neil







The same thing was said about glass cockpits. Now even the ubiquitous
172 comes with a glass cockpit. It won't be long before the backup
vacuum driven gyros are removed from their panel.

You can't count the number of components in a circuit and assign failure
modes to each one of them. If that were the case, your computer will not
be able to run for even a minute. There are millions of transistors
inside your computer, with million different failure modes. The
traditional method of counting failure modes of mechanical parts do not
apply to highly integrated electronic products. Yes, there are a few
failure modes, but not as large as you make it out to be.

B25flyer wrote:

The origional question was asked as a point of discussion. It was
meant to be
answered by people that have some sense of civility and experience in
aviation
when it comes to the training of pilots.

You don't get to pick who participates in a Usenet discussion.

I
have done this pro-bono, free, for nothing, not a damn dime, and in
the case of
one class at the Sun N Fun camp in Lakeland contibuted some of the
material.

It's funny how often someone tries to use "free" as a preemption for
all criticism. That happens to be a peeve of mine, but that's aside.

Now as to why you want to mouth off and call me a troll is strictly
up to you.

I called your post, not you, a troll, but yes, it is strictly up to me.

But let me assure you the question was meant to be answered by people
that have
some sense as to what is going on in aviation when it comes to
training
students to get from point A to B.

Qualified people are already tired of this topic.

The question by the students daughter made
for a point of discussion and there for I posted it to get some
opinions and
not smart a** remarks.

You don't get to pick what remarks are made in a Usenet discussion.

I appreciate the comments that have been made, except
yours, and found that most agree that a GPS might fail and pilotage
might just
save someone's butt some day..

That's because it's obvious, and has already been beat to death.

As for the question of IF it would ever be removed from the written
or the PTS
it was only that.....a question.

All trolls are just questions.

As for you remarks about my experience as a CFI. Been one since 1965
and have
instructed in J3s to transports and have held 11 FAA issued Check
Airman
letters.

I speculated that you're either not a CFI or this is a troll. If you
are a CFI, I'll stick with the latter.

No I dont advertise as a "World Famous Flight Instructor" but just
try and
teach students the basics and impart some knowledge learned from 42
years of
aviating.I am not going to list my hours and ratings because there
are people
on here that have more. I am not going to try and impress anyone on
this group.

Your credentials are actually very impressive.

Just try and be a little civil when someone asks a question and dont
let your
smart mouth prove that you might be the troll.

Try to grow a thicker skin, or at least a sense of humor, if you're
going to post trolls on Usenet. All I said was "Troll" and "Yeah,
right." There are certainly not offensive statements. It's not
"mouthing off." If anyone finds them uncivil, he's taking himself way
too seriously. If they're not applicable to the discussion, just skip
them.

Andrew Sarangan wrote in message .158...
"Neil Gould" wrote in
news
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

The same thing was said about glass cockpits. Now even the ubiquitous
172 comes with a glass cockpit. It won't be long before the backup
vacuum driven gyros are removed from their panel.

And with good reason: just as transistors proved more reliable than
vacuum tubes, solid-state AHRS look to be far more reliable than their
replacement. There's a huge benefit to safety, utility, and ultimately
cost by making the move.

However, I would not want to give up the non-powered wet compass,
altimeter, and airspeed indicator completely. Not until we prove that
mice can't chew through wires, etc. What's the benefit of tossing
these completely?

Likewise, I suspect navigating by reference to magnetic north will be
one of those charming anachronisms that our descendants 2000 years ago
will talk about in the same way that people today talk about how
railroad gauges were based on roman roads. (I know it's true only in a
loose sense, no need to rehash that here)

You can't count the number of components in a circuit and assign failure
modes to each one of them. If that were the case, your computer will not
be able to run for even a minute. There are millions of transistors
inside your computer, with million different failure modes. The
traditional method of counting failure modes of mechanical parts do not
apply to highly integrated electronic products. Yes, there are a few
failure modes, but not as large as you make it out to be.

Um, I'm calling bull**** on this assertion. Isn't the real key here
that the odds of a particular part (say a transistor gate inside a
CPU) failing are simply infinitesimally small? Because if one
capacitor on your PC motherboard smokes out, it's quite likely that
the whole shebang will in fact not work properly.

Best,
-cwk.

C Kingsbury wrote:

Likewise, I suspect navigating by reference to magnetic north will be
one of those charming anachronisms that our descendants 2000 years ago
will talk about in the same way that people today talk about how
railroad gauges were based on roman roads. (I know it's true only in a
loose sense, no need to rehash that here)

Actually, it's not true at all.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.