Sub-Launched SAMs

On Sep 19, 2:10*pm, Alan Dicey
wrote:
Juergen Nieveler wrote:
Alan Dicey wrote:

Part of the problem is giving away your position. *How about deploying
the SAM in a specially designed torpedo, so that it swims away from
you a significant distance before surfacing and letting fly?
Formidable problems of targetting the SAM, of course, and you've still
told the world that there is a hostile sub in the vicinity.

As I understand it, Polyphem at least IS launched via the torpedo tube,
and aimed by FO line...

Reading up on Polyphem, it appears to be a 60kM range cruise missile,
land attack or anti-ship. *Mind-bogglingly, it is fibre-optic guided
right onto the target, so takes off with 60kM of fibre on a bobbin.

Doesn't meet the requirement I had in mind, which was to separate the
apparent source of the missile from the submarine's actual location.

Mind you, if you could develop a sufficiently intelligent SAM that could
target overflying hostiles on its own, you could lay an anti-aircraft
minefield, and be miles away when the missile launched. *Pretty vital to
have included foolproof IFF, though.

Bingo - that was the scenario we discussed at the time. The sub
wasn't thought of as an active combatant against the helo or MPA, it
was going to sow its wake with a few of these canisters that popped
out an SA-7 at the first indication that a low flying aircraft has
overflown its position. The Kilo and the imagined SAM-packing Type
IIIs were the other possible scenario of the war-gamed sub-vs-ASW. We
were getting the impression that the old cat and mouse game (with us
being the cat) was evolving into a mongoose vs cobra situation. The
photos of the Kilo were widely distributed in our community, and the
whispers of the development of the cannisters were on our minds as at
least a possibility.

v/r Gordon

Are there any SAMs small enough to fit into a Torpedo casing?

Something like an electric torpedo with a fake extendable periscope
and a SAM, and the sensors to direct it, could swim a few miles
from the launching sub, then expose the fake periscope
periodically.

Then when an enemy aircraft comes into range... *whoosh!*

Maybe the torp/decoy could be equipped to replicate the
acoustic and magnetic signatures of a sub too.

Juergen Nieveler wrote in
:

wrote:

Are there any SAMs small enough to fit into a Torpedo casing?

Any MANPADS will fit into a normal torpedo casing.

Most MANPADS will fit into the volume taken up by the warhead and its
associated gubbins. SHORAD missiles like Chapparal, Crotale, Rapier, Roland
and ADATS will fit into a torpedo casing, but the volume devoted to the
engine and fuel may have to be reduced. Only the IR seeking missiles seem
likely for such adaptation, the others do not have terminal homing.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:27:45 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:

On Sep 18, 10:17*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:38*am, BlackBeard wrote:

Sheesh... Boomer sailor right? *

(relax David, it was all in love- fellow Dolphin wearer...)

Sir, you have given me a great honor, but I have never been a
submariner. I tip my hat to you guys.

Sheesh... I think I made this mistake before. I'll blame the
meds* I took before I posted this time
I'm just going to have to start another thread and generate a list
of the bubbleheads posting here. I know Derek, Vaughn, and Max all
claim the fish. Just can't keep the rest in memory.

USS Michigan SBBN-727 Blue - 1982-88.

In fact, Derek can vouch for me as authentic (he knows someone who
served in RC Division on Michigan with me - Matt Henson).

Actually have met and drank with Max with his port and starboard
fish- in a historic Submariners bar, at a book signing for a Submarine
book, sitting across from the ****ter off the USS Dolphin as an
authentic klaxon sounded and required us to drink nuclear depth
charges.
My apologies for including you among the unwashed Denizens of the
Deep... I respect you, your posts, and demeanor. However you should
not be accused of having participated in the terribly painful,
demeaning, degrading, raw sexual process that is required to be called
a Submariner...
--
"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all."
- James Graham, Marquis of Montrose

On Sep 20, 4:11*pm, "David V. Loewe, Jr"
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:27:45 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:

On Sep 18, 10:17*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:38*am, BlackBeard wrote:
Sheesh... Boomer sailor right? *

(relax David, it was all in love- fellow Dolphin wearer...)
Sir, you have given me a great honor, but I have never been a
submariner. I tip my hat to you guys.
* Sheesh... *I think I made this mistake before. *I'll blame the
meds* I took before I posted this time
* I'm just going to have to start another thread and generate a list
of the bubbleheads posting here. *I know Derek, Vaughn, and Max all
claim the fish. *Just can't keep the rest in memory.

USS Michigan SBBN-727 Blue - 1982-88.

In fact, Derek can vouch for me as authentic (he knows someone who
served in RC Division on Michigan with me - Matt Henson).

* Actually have met and drank with Max with his port and starboard
fish- in a historic Submariners bar, at a book signing for a Submarine
book, sitting across from the ****ter off the USS Dolphin as an
authentic klaxon sounded and required us to drink nuclear depth
charges.
*My apologies for including you among the unwashed Denizens of the
Deep... *I respect you, your posts, and demeanor. *However you should
not be accused of having participated in the terribly painful,
demeaning, degrading, raw sexual process that is required to be called
a Submariner... *

--
"He either fears his fate too much,
*Or his deserts are small,
*Who dares not put it to the touch,
*To win or lose it all."
* *- James Graham, Marquis of Montrose

Good to see you posting again. (Psst....it's football season...U
$C lost to UDub...it doesn't get much better than that)

On Sep 20, 1:27*pm, Juergen Nieveler
wrote:
Andrew Chaplin wrote:
Most MANPADS will fit into the volume taken up by the warhead and its
associated gubbins. SHORAD missiles like Chapparal, Crotale, Rapier,
Roland and ADATS will fit into a torpedo casing, but the volume
devoted to the engine and fuel may have to be reduced. Only the IR
seeking missiles seem likely for such adaptation, the others do not
have terminal homing.

Hm... would a laser-guided system like Starstreak be able to pick up a
targeting laser projected by the periscope even when launched some
distance away?

Juergen Nieveler
--
Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography. - Paul
Rodriguez

That could work....

Or, how about a recoverable RPV? It can fly up, maybe come out of a
shell it rises up in, then deploy to guide or fire a MANPADS style
missile or a laser guided one like Starstreak. Then she can descend,
maybe even ballast down and descend for retrieval.

In message , Juergen
Nieveler writes
Hm... would a laser-guided system like Starstreak be able to pick up a
targeting laser projected by the periscope even when launched some
distance away?

No. Starstreak is a beam-rider (well, for a sophisticated version of
"beam") that really needs the missile to start pretty much on boresight
for the tracker.

A semi-active laser system might be more effective for this role: for
slow MPA and helicopters, something like Hellfire might be modified to
suit. However, slow at periscope depth with a mast up is where you
*don't* want to be against any sort of capable ASW opposition.


--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sep 20, 4:11*pm, "David V. Loewe, Jr"
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:27:45 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
wrote:
On Sep 18, 10:17*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:38*am, BlackBeard wrote:

Sheesh... Boomer sailor right? *

(relax David, it was all in love- fellow Dolphin wearer...)
Sir, you have given me a great honor, but I have never been a
submariner. I tip my hat to you guys.
* Sheesh... *I think I made this mistake before. *I'll blame the
meds* I took before I posted this time
* I'm just going to have to start another thread and generate a list
of the bubbleheads posting here. *I know Derek, Vaughn, and Max all
claim the fish. *Just can't keep the rest in memory.

USS Michigan SBBN-727 Blue - 1982-88.

In fact, Derek can vouch for me as authentic (he knows someone who
served in RC Division on Michigan with me - Matt Henson).

* Actually have met and drank with Max with his port and starboard
fish- in a historic Submariners bar, at a book signing for a Submarine
book, sitting across from the ****ter off the USS Dolphin as an
authentic klaxon sounded and required us to drink nuclear depth
charges.
*My apologies for including you among the unwashed Denizens of the
Deep... *I respect you, your posts, and demeanor. *However you should
not be accused of having participated in the terribly painful,
demeaning, degrading, raw sexual process that is required to be called
a Submariner... *

Good to see you posting again. (Psst....it's football season...U
$C lost to UDub...it doesn't get much better than that)

I know. Did you see my Bow Down To Washington post over in rsfc?
--
"Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root
of all evil."
-Lazarus Long

On Sep 19, 12:45*pm, "vaughn"
wrote:
"BlackBeard" wrote in message

...

*I know Derek, Vaughn, and Max all
claim the fish.

start flashback

Got them fair and square too. *Caught them in my teeth in a bar in Dunoon
Scotland, where they had been dropped into a beer mug full of assorted
shots. *Heaving one's guts out afterwards was considered part of the game.
When I came out of the pub's smelly head, I was still wearing that nasty
toilet seat. *My shipmates called me "horsecollar" from that day on.

The next day, the XO reclaimed them so that a visiting assistant SecDef (the
Mr. Packard from HP) would have a ceremony to perform. *The SOB was late, so
I had to shiver on deck for an hour while I waited to get my dolphins back.

end flashback

Vaughn

I drank mine on the top deck of the Miami Superbar in Subic City.
Mojo, shots, raw eggs, hot sauce, and the contents of an ashtray I
believe. Thank god they couldn't find a balut...


BB

On Sep 19, 7:33*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
* Actually have met and drank with Max with his port and starboard
fish

If your work ever brings you up this way, we'll have to hit the local
brewpub... *(Ralph L, occasional poster here in SMN, also lives in the
vicinity.)

Can't quite put it away with the same enthusiasm/volume as I did in
the old days though.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

The offer is reciprocated, but I can't remember what city you are
in. I'm glad I can't put it away like I used to- I'll live
longer.

BB