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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 23rd 09, 03:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BeechSundowner
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Posts: 138
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 8:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.


TRUE


Robert,

I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. This
is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of
course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight..

See http://discussions.flightaware.com/v...?p=87546#87546
where I raised this question before undertaking the exercise.
Thoughts?

  #12  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Dohm
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Posts: 1,754
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

"BeechSundowner" wrote in message
...
On Aug 23, 8:17 am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.


TRUE


Robert,

I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. This
is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of
course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight..

See http://discussions.flightaware.com/v...?p=87546#87546
where I raised this question before undertaking the exercise.
Thoughts?

First of all, I really doubt that anyone other than the NetKops on UseNet
care whether you were conducting acrobatic flight. Personally, the only
reason I can think of for an emergency descent in a non-pressurized light
single is a fire; and in that case I might not stop at 90 degrees. Besides,
in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared
under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle!

As to commercial jets, each type may require a type rating and each type
rating may include a recommended procedure. There is an article on flying
corporate and commercial turbine powered aircraft in each issue of AOPA
Pilot, and one of the issues about a year ago did include a simulated
emergency descent. In the aircraft type involved, it was easily possible
for an attendant or passenger to be standing in the cabin at the time that
an emergency might develope; so IIRC the proceedure used in the article was
to roll about 30 degrees and push over sufficiently to feel a little light
in the seat (about 1/2G) while retarding the thrust levers to flight idle.
The article covered the procedure trained by a particular operator of a
particular aircraft type.

Peter



  #13  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BeechSundowner
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Posts: 138
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 10:02*am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

*Besides,
in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared
under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle!


Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the
research before doing this
maneuver in the first place.

The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better
myself in
see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in
VFR training
in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my
own plane?

As you can see, this from the Flight Aware thread I provided, came up
because of the Hudson
River mid air and discussions ensued on evasive maneuvers, thus me
wanting to expand
on my own envelope on avoiding a mid air collision.

I know I may be comparing apples and oranges when comparing jets to
pistons
but the concept of minimal G for the bank lead me to believe what was
posted
in the thread I brought here as it being a non acrobatic maneuver.

I now have expanded my avoidance in two directions rather then one.
Right and down rather
then just down.
  #14  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 7:57*am, a wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:52*am, a wrote:





On Aug 22, 10:41*pm, a wrote:


On Aug 22, 9:51*pm, " wrote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo


Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.


Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.


Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting..


Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this


Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank?


Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough
throttle to keep the engine warm.


I don't have the documentation handy and my memory may be in error,
but I think the Mooney's limits when used in the general utility
category are 30 degrees pitch 60 degrees bank. *Since it's used mainly
for XC, mostly under IFR, there's no reason to ever come close to
those limits. I wondered if the Sundowner certification was markedly
different.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ah, here it is, and it isn't just Mooneys.

* * * * * a. *FAR Section 91.71 defines "acrobatic flight" as "an
* * * intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
* * * attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
* * * necessary for normal flight." *In addition, Section 91.15(c)
* * * indirectly refers to acrobatic flight in which it specifies that
* * * "unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved
* * * parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft, carrying any person
* * * (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver
* * * that exceeds:

* * * * * * * (1) *A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

* * * * * * * (2) *A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees
* * * relative to the horizon."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Another minor issue -- if you are going to do steep descending turns
in a low winged airplane, you may be a little better off making the
turns to the left. Visibility into the space you are turning into
would be better.

Also, question for the readers -- does anyone flying left seat in a
low wing airplane do their slips with right wing low?
  #15  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 9:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.


TRUE

Breaking the law is one thing


IN WHAT RESPECT

but are you certified for aerobatics?


PILOTS DON'T HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS in the USofA

What about your aircraft?


When properly equipped, the B23 and C23 are approved for limited
aerobatics. (Wikipedia)

This could get you killed.


Normal takeoffs and landings kill a lot of pilots.

Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers
outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303.


LET ME REMIND YOU.... that the Sundowner is approved for Spins.
Google "Beechcraft Sundowner Spins" and you will find a reference
to "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness By Rich
Stowell". I would suggest that you read the paragraphs on the following
web page.http://books.google.com/books?id=i8r...A304&lpg=PA304
&dq=Spins+in+sundowner&source=bl&ots=u0xxM-hDbY&sig=r8g_VtQN_AjTS8Cql-
tWtg0geRo&hl=en&ei=KD2RSo_BKoH8tge9p6TPBA&sa=X&oi= book_result&ct=result&
resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Jeeze...damn amateurs.......

Bob Moore
ATP B-727, B-707, L-188
USN S-2F , P-2V , P-3B
Flight Instructor ASE-I
PanAm (retired)


I'm wondering why the 60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a
'chute for all occupants doesn't apply?
  #16  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
A Lieberman[_3_]
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Posts: 6
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 10:40*am, a wrote:

Another minor issue -- if you are going to do steep descending turns
in a low winged airplane, you may be a little better off making the
turns to the left. Visibility into the space you are turning into
would be better.


The reason I went right was to practice mid air collision avoidance.
For head on's, your suppose to turn right from what I understand.

Also, question for the readers -- does anyone flying left seat in a
low wing airplane do their slips with right wing low?


I find it more comfortable with my left wing low for the very reason
you say above, visibility is better rather then having to look across
the cabin and not seeing the ground as much.

  #17  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Blanche
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Posts: 346
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

I was taught a steep spiral for getting down really fast in a very
small area.

I don't have the Sundowner POH but I just checked my Musketeer
POH - 2.9, Maneuver Limits: Bank Angles no more than 60 deg.

Of course on the following page there's the remark
"Minimum flight crew: One (1) pilot"


  #18  
Old August 23rd 09, 05:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BeechSundowner
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Posts: 138
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 10:49*am, Blanche wrote:
I was taught a steep spiral for getting down really fast in a very
small area.

I don't have the Sundowner POH but I just checked my Musketeer
POH - 2.9, Maneuver Limits: Bank Angles no more than 60 deg.

Of course on the following page there's the remark
"Minimum flight crew: One (1) pilot"


In my plane it's placarded allowed commercial maneuvers (Chandelles,
lazy eights come to mind). I do need to check the POH.to double
check the bank limitations, but I don't remember seeing such a
limitation. VNE is 152 knots.

I do remember seeing the same remark minimum flight crew of one
pilot. I guess that is the legalese way of saying that a pre-solo
student can't fly the plane solo legally LOL
  #19  
Old August 23rd 09, 06:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Steve Hix
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Posts: 340
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

In article
,
a wrote:

Another minor issue -- if you are going to do steep descending turns
in a low winged airplane, you may be a little better off making the
turns to the left. Visibility into the space you are turning into
would be better.

Also, question for the readers -- does anyone flying left seat in a
low wing airplane do their slips with right wing low?


I will if there's a crosswind from the right. That would be flying a
Tecnam Sierra, being the only low-wing aircraft I've flown in a long
time.
  #20  
Old August 23rd 09, 07:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BeechSundowner
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Posts: 138
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 8:03*am, Gauntlet
wrote:

*What
height did you enter the manoeuvre? *What height did you commence
recovery? *What height did you recover at?


I can't answer the book questions, only the streetwise questions.

Altimeter hands clearly show that I started the banked descent at
6000. I approached VNE very quickly and recovered at 4500 clearly
seen in the video. In the beginning of the video, I also alerted ATC
that I would work between 4000 and 6000 and told them that I would be
making rapid altitude changes so they could expect that. 325 is my
airport elevation so I had plenty of altitude. Gmeter in my plane
showed a maximum 2 G value on recovery, and there was no negative G
recorded I only banked, no pulling or pushing in the yoke and held the
bank angle until the nose started to drop. Video also shows my
recovery was not abrupt as I let the plane fly out on it's own. I had
a self imposed floor of 4000 and as you can see in the video, VNE came
up before the floor, so I let the plane level on it's own without any
power adjustment.

I did do two emergency descents without bank to get a feel of what was
needed for nose down attitude without pushing on the yoke excessively.

Beech Sundowner is my plane and commercial maneuvers are permitted. I
have a little over 950 hours in my plane I did check out all I could
before doing this maneuver.(see response to Robert Moore) and didn't
do this "blindly" as the intent of my own lesson was to learn how to
descend quickly should an imminent head on be in my future.

I do feel I did all I could research wise to ensure safety, and as you
can see, the outcome does speak for itself. I posted the video for
entertainment, educational value on how I fly, we all know it's not
designed for instructional value nor is this the intent of any of my
videos.

Truth be known, I felt just as safe doing this as doing a power on /
power off stall. Nose dropped just the same. Only difference I felt
was the speed was higher, G forces were non existent and I had to be
on top of my game for energy management..
 




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