Towpilots ignoring turn signals

At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.


Wow! Is is still winter in the northern hemisphere? How about the concept of,
"When in Rome, do as the Romans."?

Just to keep the waters churned, I submit that for an individual pilot to
begin arbitrarily making "anti-Roman" decisions is arguably crazier than
intelligently applying the "When in Rome..." philosophy.

I'll go back and hibernate, now.

Bob W.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

I'm not sure what planet you have been gliding on, but use of steering signals has been taught and used for decades, especially when radios in tugs were rare.
There is nothing fundementally dangerous about the technique when properly done.
The wake boxing skill set required in US training and licensing requires mastery and demonstration of the safe skills needed.
It ain't crazy.
UH

I'm flabbergasted that USA glider pilots steer the tug with the tow rope and that UK pilots don't. It's understandable that tug pilots compensate with rudder input for yaw induced by a lateral pull.

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:45:05 AM UTC-4, Gav Goudie wrote:

See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/cl.../documents/aer
otownotes.pdf

I've also been taught to position the glider slightly left of the Pawnee's rudder when climbing. That way the tug can keep a neutral rudder (sparing the tug pilot's legs). Does anyone see a problem with that practice?

might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png

as well as to Task C, number 5 of the Commercial Glider PTS (which refers to the above manual):

C. TASK: AEROTOW - MAINTAINING TOW POSITIONS
REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-13.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
5. Uses aerotow visual signals as appropriate and as directed
by the examiner.


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:

There is nothing fundamentally dangerous about the technique when properly done.


The BGA reference (page 30) says that pulling the tug laterally has the potential to abruptly stall the vertical stabilizer of the tug, inducing a flick roll of the tug and a possible midair collision. It goes on to say "The highest risk of a lateral upset is during the
'glider cannot release' signal demonstration".


See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/cl.../documents/aer
otownotes.pdf

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 6:30:05 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

Wow! You need to read Burt Compton's previous comments.
I guess most of us are "just plain crazy and complete idiots" but than of course we do follow the SSA's long standing standard signals on tow.
As far as I can remember properly trained, no one ever got hurt doing steering turns or boxing the wake (or similar out of position and recover maneuvers) around this hemisphere although I'm sure it can be done. But than one can misunderstand radio communications just as equally if not easier .
6PK

Le jeudi 30 avril 2015 16:33:36 UTC+2, Bob Pasker a écrit*:
might I draw your attention to this diagram in the FAA's Glider Flying Handbook of aerotow visual signals?

http://funkyimg.com/i/WrPp.png


When I compare the signals on tow in your link to the signals on tow in the link of son_of_flubber (which indicates just the opposite), I think that the invention of the radio was a rather good thing.

WTF is wrong with the soaring community that we apparently cannot have a civilized discussion about this? There's some attitude on display here that's disturbing.

It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering information to a tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent situation. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a 200' rope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone's imagination running wild.

*MY* reservation about the practice of glider induced steering is that it's the tow pilot's job to clear the airspace and the glider pilot -- having the additional task of formation flying -- isn't as well positioned for ensuring separation from other traffic. So I agree that a better practice is a) plan ahead of time and/or b) use the radio.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Different Dan - not me! I'll take the glider anywhere he wants to go
and be relieved of any responsibility for him getting off in a poor
location.

Most glider pilots know that the local tow pilot knows where the house
thermals are. He's also just landed from several tows and knows the
current conditions. I really hate it when a glider pilot complains that
I "dropped him off in sink". It is he, not I who pulled the release!

Getting off track...

On 4/29/2015 7:34 PM, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:05:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
A plane's width? Not nearly enough!
i've never had to go further out than wingtip-to-wingtip to steer the tow pilot.

it was obvious that he didn't care a whit anyway, and Dan is right, he probably would have gut me loose if I'da drug his tail around.

--
Dan Marotta