A couple of questions about IPC

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:r%LJf.95587$4l5.41646@dukeread05...
The FAA will say that the pilot needing to get his IFR
currency can do it in VMC and does not need IMC with a
current IFR pilot, if they go out on a VMC day, the IFR
pilot is just a safety pilot.

Sure, no one disagrees with any of that. But we were discussing the rules
for PIC logging in the scenario where the nonrated (or noncurrent)
sole-manipulator is flying IFR in IMC with a rated and current PIC.

--Gary

The instrument-rated PIC in the IFR scenario *is* a required pilot in the
sense of 61.51e1iii. But 61.51e1iii still does not entitle her to log PIC
time, because the flight in question does not require *more than one* pilot
(because the other pilot, the non-instrument-rated sole manipulator, is
*not* a required pilot for the flight).

No, I'm sorry. There is nothing in the certification of her aircraft or
the regulation she is flying under that require her to be there (i.e. a
"required pilot") per 61.51(e)iii. This is a well understood FAR, if
not well written. I suggest you call AOPA. They have an entire handout
they can mail to you to explain the subject.


-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
The instrument-rated PIC in the IFR scenario *is* a required pilot in the
sense of 61.51e1iii. But 61.51e1iii still does not entitle her to log PIC
time, because the flight in question does not require *more than one*
pilot
(because the other pilot, the non-instrument-rated sole manipulator, is
*not* a required pilot for the flight).

No, I'm sorry. There is nothing in the certification of her aircraft or
the regulation she is flying under that require her to be there (i.e. a
"required pilot") per 61.51(e)iii.

Of course there is. The regulation that requires her to be there is 61.57c,
which sets forth the currency requirements for flying IFR or in IMC. If the
instrument-current PIC is not present, the flight is not legal, since the
flight is IFR and the other pilot (the sole manipulator) is not
instrument-current. Therefore, the instrument-current PIC is required by the
regs (specifically, by 61.57c), but the sole-manipulator pilot is not a
required pilot according to the regs for that flight.

--Gary

Whether current or not, the pilot flying logs PIC when sole
manipulator. The current pilot, who is required to be PIC
because of a current status of IFR, in IMC is not allowed to
log anything unless they are a CFI. An ATP under Part 121
or 135 [for operations that require an ATP] may log PIC when
they are instructing or observing, or during normal flight
operations.
But the desire to log as much PIC as possible is not a
justification for doing so. What you log and what the FAA
will accept [after the accident] or the insurance company,
may be enough to get your ticket pulled or insurance
cancelled.
Yes, the non-current IFR pilot must have a safety pilot when
getting current in the six month grace period and an IPC is
required after 12 months have expired from the date of the
first flight used to last meet the IFR currency
requirements. In other words, count backwards until you have
the day of the required flights all being meet, then count
forward 6 months. If you are within 6 months file and fly
and log what you do. If more than 6 months have passed you
need a safety pilot, who will log SIC since they are
required and will not be sole manipulator, they are just
EYES and for emergencies. If you can get an IFR rated and
current pilot to let you fly, unless they are a CFI they are
just a passenger even though their IFR currency and name
will be the basis for the IFR flight being legal.

The plain CFI-A can log PIC under these conditions, but a
CFI-IA can conduct the IPC and log as PIC.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:r%LJf.95587$4l5.41646@dukeread05...
| The FAA will say that the pilot needing to get his IFR
| currency can do it in VMC and does not need IMC with a
| current IFR pilot, if they go out on a VMC day, the IFR
| pilot is just a safety pilot.
|
| Sure, no one disagrees with any of that. But we were
discussing the rules
| for PIC logging in the scenario where the nonrated (or
noncurrent)
| sole-manipulator is flying IFR in IMC with a rated and
current PIC.
|
| --Gary
|
|

But the non-current pilot IS NOT required to fly in IMC to
get current, so the flight only requires one pilot per
aircraft certification. The current IFR pilot is required
on the flight plan in IMC but is not flying, nor a CFI so
they cannot log the time, they are just legally responsible
as PIC, but they cannot log it.

There conditions when no pilot will be allowed to log any
pilot time for a flight, and there are times when more than
one pilot will log PIC, but the FAA may ask anytime for you
to explain the facts on a flight. If you have a flight that
doesn't meet the requirements, that flight won't be allowed
to count towards currency or flight test requirements, if
there are many such flights, you may have a real problem.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| The instrument-rated PIC in the IFR scenario *is* a
required pilot in the
| sense of 61.51e1iii. But 61.51e1iii still does not
entitle her to log PIC
| time, because the flight in question does not require
*more than one*
| pilot
| (because the other pilot, the non-instrument-rated sole
manipulator, is
| *not* a required pilot for the flight).
|
| No, I'm sorry. There is nothing in the certification of
her aircraft or
| the regulation she is flying under that require her to
be there (i.e. a
| "required pilot") per 61.51(e)iii.
|
| Of course there is. The regulation that requires her to be
there is 61.57c,
| which sets forth the currency requirements for flying IFR
or in IMC. If the
| instrument-current PIC is not present, the flight is not
legal, since the
| flight is IFR and the other pilot (the sole manipulator)
is not
| instrument-current. Therefore, the instrument-current PIC
is required by the
| regs (specifically, by 61.57c), but the sole-manipulator
pilot is not a
| required pilot according to the regs for that flight.
|
| --Gary
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:_TMJf.95592$4l5.35130@dukeread05...
Whether current or not, the pilot flying logs PIC when sole
manipulator. The current pilot, who is required to be PIC
because of a current status of IFR, in IMC is not allowed to
log anything unless they are a CFI.

Right, that's what I've been saying all along.

Yes, the non-current IFR pilot must have a safety pilot when
getting current in the six month grace period

Or else must fly in IMC with an instrument-current PIC (the PIC is not a
safety pilot in that scenario).

--Gary

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:F%MJf.95595$4l5.29658@dukeread05...
But the non-current pilot IS NOT required to fly in IMC to
get current, so the flight only requires one pilot per
aircraft certification. The current IFR pilot is required
on the flight plan in IMC but is not flying, nor a CFI so
they cannot log the time, they are just legally responsible
as PIC, but they cannot log it.

Right, that's exactly what I've been saying throughout this thread.

--Gary

We agree on this, now if everybody else will just accept our
position on the subject.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:_TMJf.95592$4l5.35130@dukeread05...
| Whether current or not, the pilot flying logs PIC when
sole
| manipulator. The current pilot, who is required to be
PIC
| because of a current status of IFR, in IMC is not
allowed to
| log anything unless they are a CFI.
|
| Right, that's what I've been saying all along.
|
| Yes, the non-current IFR pilot must have a safety pilot
when
| getting current in the six month grace period
|
| Or else must fly in IMC with an instrument-current PIC
(the PIC is not a
| safety pilot in that scenario).
|
| --Gary
|
|

When I would go over to the local FSDO for my 6 month 135
checks and annual chief flight instructor checks, the old
hands at the FSDO would send me to the new guys. When I was
asked about some rule or procedure, I'd do my Jack Webb
impression.
Q When does the flight require oxygen? A. "FAR (I'd quote
the rule and paragraph number) says" and the inspector would
interrupt to ask a different question. After about 15
minutes of them asking questions and me starting with the
FAR paragraph number they'd call it a day. Then they
government renumbered part 91 and that made it necessary for
me to either memorize the rules again or actually give
answers.


"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:F%MJf.95595$4l5.29658@dukeread05...
| But the non-current pilot IS NOT required to fly in IMC
to
| get current, so the flight only requires one pilot per
| aircraft certification. The current IFR pilot is
required
| on the flight plan in IMC but is not flying, nor a CFI
so
| they cannot log the time, they are just legally
responsible
| as PIC, but they cannot log it.
|
| Right, that's exactly what I've been saying throughout
this thread.
|
| --Gary
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:vENJf.95896$4l5.91480@dukeread05...
When I would go over to the local FSDO for my 6 month 135
checks and annual chief flight instructor checks, the old
hands at the FSDO would send me to the new guys. When I was
asked about some rule or procedure, I'd do my Jack Webb
impression.
Q When does the flight require oxygen? A. "FAR (I'd quote
the rule and paragraph number) says" and the inspector would
interrupt to ask a different question. After about 15
minutes of them asking questions and me starting with the
FAR paragraph number they'd call it a day. Then they
government renumbered part 91 and that made it necessary for
me to either memorize the rules again or actually give
answers.

Or just bring a handheld PC and search in real time for the relevant FAR.

--Gary