Battery Source

Udo Rumpf wrote:

I fly with a Dittle Radio.
If the radio is on but I do not talk, my 7AH 12V battery lasts about 4.5
hour with the usual LNav, logger and 1530 Ipaq. The battery will read
about 11.8 volts after that time. At that point if I make a call on the
radio the chances are I will not be heard unless I am close to the
field. That is due in large part the hand held radios seem not to do
very well when it comes to receiving a call from a radio with lower
battery power.

You didn't say which Dittel, but the brochure for the one I looked (FSG
2T) indicated plenty of power (5 watts) at 11 volts. Perhaps yours is
an older model, but even @ 2 watts (like the Becker 4201 and Microair),
the range would drop off only about 40% compared the nominal 5 watts at
13.75 volts.

It's possible you have a problem not related to the voltage; e.g., maybe
the voltage is dropping well below the 11.8 volts when the transmitter
is keyed, or the radio is not functioning within specifications.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios don't
require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave

I fly with a Dittle Radio.
If the radio is on but I do not talk, my 7AH 12V battery lasts about 4.5
hour with the usual LNav, logger and 1530 Ipaq. The battery will read
about 11.8 volts after that time. At that point if I make a call on the
radio the chances are I will not be heard unless I am close to the field.
That is due in large part the hand held radios seem not to do very well
when it comes to receiving a call from a radio with lower battery power.


You didn't say which Dittel, but the brochure for the one I looked (FSG
2T) indicated plenty of power (5 watts) at 11 volts. Perhaps yours is an
older model, but even @ 2 watts (like the Becker 4201 and Microair), the
range would drop off only about 40% compared the nominal 5 watts at 13.75
volts.

It's possible you have a problem not related to the voltage; e.g., maybe
the voltage is dropping well below the 11.8 volts when the transmitter is
keyed, or the radio is not functioning within specifications.


Eric Greenwell

I have a 720A Dittle radio
Power requirements;
Receive .1 - .4 amps
Transmit (tone) 1.4 amps (.8 amps unmodulated)
The 11.8 volts I was referring to is before transmit.
If I remember correctly when the battery is fully charged
and I hit the transmit button the voltage drops from 12.7 to 12.2.
Udo

I'm flying with a 12V/12Ah battery with a full panel (calculator, radio,
Colibri, Ipaq, FLARM), and after 10h of operation the battery shows still
12.4V with the radio transmitting.

So what exactly do you need the 14V for?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"David Kinsell" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage
people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage
batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios
don't require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V
power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and
share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than
they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their
manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for
them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave

"David Kinsell" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage
people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage
batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios
don't require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V
power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and
share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than
they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their
manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for
them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave



I don't have a manual for my Becker AR3201 so I had a look on the
manufacturer's website for the current equivalent model and found this:

http://www.becker-avionics.com/product/files/ar4201.pdf

The top of page 2 states:
Supply Voltage: 12.4 - 15.1 V
Emergency Supply Voltage: 10.0 V

I am now confused ! Please can you explain what you mean by nominal input
voltage - is that the average of the maximum and the minimum ? Any idea
what is meant by Emergency Supply Voltage?

Regards,
John Wilton

Eric Greenwell wrote:
It's possible you have a problem not related to the voltage; e.g., maybe
the voltage is dropping well below the 11.8 volts when the transmitter
is keyed, or the radio is not functioning within specifications.

Many of us use the LNAV battery voltage screen to check batteries (I
assume the CAI 302 and other vario/flight computers offer the same
thing). That seems to be pretty accurate and has the advantage of
reading the voltage at the instrument where it counts, not at the
battery before current must traverse small diameter wiring, corroded
connectors, etc., with subsequent loss in voltage.

BUT...one must key the radio mike and hold it down for several seconds
(don't everyone do this at once on the local glider frequency) to get
an updated reading for the voltage under full transmit load. That's
nearly always lower. I've never checked to see whether the LNAV readout
takes a while to register the new voltage or whether the battery
actually sags after several seconds under load. I'm not sure it matters
since few pilots seem to be able to limit their tranmissions to less
than 5 seconds, though.

Chip Bearden

Hi David,

I think your observations are interesting.

One part that is interesting is that you talk about how so many pilots that
use 12V systems are having problems. I have heard from both 12V and 14V
advocates that have problems with their batteries. Like you, I have never
had any problems with my batteries. I use 12V batteries.

I think that the majority of "battery problems" are owner induced. It is
difficult to remember when you purchased a battery. Most people naturally
underestimate the age of their batteries. I think many pilots are flying
with old batteries that have not been cared for and then they complain about
them.

I take care of my batteries. I don't let them sit for more than 3 months
without recharging, I charge them before flying, I replace them every 2
years. Every time I get a new battery I put the date on it so that I will
know when to replace it. I don't want a battery failure during a record
flight or contest flight - or any flight for that matter.

I stock a lot of Power-Sonic batteries for sale to glider pilots. My
calendar reminds me to charge them every 3 months so they will not be
damaged.

Many pilots fly with 12V systems and we really are very happy with them.
People can hear our radio transmissions from very far away and we are heard
clearly. People who take care of their 14V systems will also have good
results. They may truly have a few more watts of transmit power. To me the
issues involved with 14V systems are not worth the extra small percentage of
transmit power. Many glider pilots agree with me that 12V systems are
great. Many glider pilots prefer 14V systems. I think it will always be
that way.

Issues with 14V systems.
- Most glider battery compartments are designed to hold 12V batteries so it
is difficult to secure a 14V battery well. Radio manufacturers make
extremely rugged and easy to use battery boxes for 12V batteries, but 14V
batteries don't fit into them.
- It is difficult to match 12V and 2V batteries well so that they charge
equally. I have tried running 14V systems in my gliders in the past. I
found that the 2V battery was completely dead at the end of every soaring
season. That is the main reason I switched to 12V systems.
- 14V chargers are more difficult to find and more expensive. After you
invest in one and later come to the conclusions that many of us have (that
12V systems are fine) you will throw away your expensive 14V charger and
invest in a 12V charger.

I find your comment about German radio manufacturers to be funny. They all
sell 12V batteries and battery boxes. So they are endorsing the use of 12V
batteries. They must agree with me (and many other glider pilots) that 12V
systems are acceptable and, dare I say it... preferable.

Uh Oh... I just top posted! (my preference)

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde


"David Kinsell" wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi David,

You crack me up.

I highly recommend 12V systems in gliders. You can save yourself a lot of
money and hassle by using 12V batteries.

You want me to be like Mike/Strike and put in multiple 12 volt batteries
in hopes of getting enough juice to run a panel? After a while, he'll
figure out that switching batteries glitches his FR, computer, and radio,
so he starts throwing in the monster capacitors, the power Shottkies,
the microprocessor-controlled reed relays, and all the other garbage
people
use to try to get around the problems. Seems like when people try to be
cheap and lazy, it ends up costing them time and money in the long run.
It's one of those false economies type of things.

My little 14 volt tail battery (singular) powers the panel just fine even
after being cold-soaked at 18 grand for 5 hours. In fact, at the end of
the flight, it delivers more juice to the panel than people flying around
with 20 A-H of batteries have at take off. Been running a FR for about
six years, and haven't had a single glitch in the data in all that time.
If you have some actual information about why running undervoltage
batteries
is such a great idea, I'd like to hear it, but you really haven't offered
anything but personal opinion with no facts to back it up.


The design of radios has changed a lot in recent years. Good radios
don't require 14V batteries. Low cost and old radios do prefer 14V
power.


Really? You need to immediately contact the German manufacturers and
share
your revelations with them. Since you know more about the radios than
they
do, they'll be happy to correct all the wrong information in their
manuals.
If you should happen to actually read the manuals, you'll see they all
have nominal input voltages of 13.8 volts, just like always, but since
you're so much smarter than they are, you can rewrite the manuals for
them.
Obviously, they all have no idea what they're talking about, since they're
only the ones who designed the radios.

Dave

What "Dittel" Radio?
I hear this very commonly that "I have a Dittel" radio.....and I'm sure most
people "assume" (and we all know what that means) that a "Dittel" radio is a
"Walter Dittel" radio .....If it's an ATR (Dittel) of any kind then it is an
"AVIONIC DITTEL" which is far from the "WALTER DITTEL" radio is all
respects, quality, design, function and format.......No question the Walter
Dittel radio's are among the very best ever produced for glider use....and a
Walter Dittel (current models) radio draws and operates on lower current
than nearly all the rest, operating 100% even well below 11 volts.
Voltage (level) isn't however the only criteria, you have to have Amps
(Capacity) also....
Always question your voltmeter as well.......if you are relying on the
voltmeter in an L/Nav or for that matter, in any flight computer or even a
separate voltmeters you are reading what that voltmeter (was) calibrated
to....and often they are misleading, you can also have volts and not
capacity...so though the voltmeter may show a higher value at idle, when
loaded, transmitting for instance, with a low capacity battery source you
will lose voltage quickly. Also, voltage at the meter (Voltmeter in computer
or otherwise) may not be the same voltage at the transmitter......cable
size, cable length, fuses, circuit breakers, all have a diminishing effect
on available current and voltage at the final source (Radio). And without
enough amperage capacity the voltage at the radio may be too low to Tx even
though at lower voltage the Rx will be OK.
As to others receiving your transmissions, it will make no difference if
they are using a cheaper handheld radio or the best panle mounted receiver
.....radio transmissions are either good or bad....and battery voltage will
have very little to do with Tx range or the receivers ability on the other
end.....if you have a low voltage, too low for the transmitter it will
normally come off as a garbled to whatever receiver gets your signal.
Finally, some radios are more voltage sensitive than others, and won't
operate fully at too low a voltage, where others can, and of course some
draw more current on standby than others. Most people "assume" that because
a radio has a very low standby current requirement, that it will be much
easier on batteries, Standby currents are almost always very low on most
radios we would commonly use in gliders since few if any have bright LED
displays or need to run warm like older tube radios did, and "most" will
draw very similar currents on Tx, as long as their output power is
similar..so if you get High Tx power ratings, you will also get high current
requirements in your choice of radios....for our purposes, even 1 watt
(carrier) transmitters will be more than enough providing your antenna is
good and proper.
Finally..since most better radios will operate at reasonable low (and high)
voltages I suggest using 12V battery set-ups over 14 Volts.....providing you
are using the same physical size (lead and acid) since in the 12V set-up you
will be able to carry a larger capacity battery (Amp hours)..also if you
feed the radio and other equipment at higher voltage, the capacity
(use)(((amps))) will be drawn at a higher rate as well....meaning the
battery will be drained more quickly at higher voltage.and though it has
further to fall to get to the critical level than the lower voltage set, it
will fall quicker.and with any battery, once it gets used and the capacity
becomes lower, it will fall very, very fast to where it is unusable.
I hope my explanations are correct and not too rambling.....
Tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com



I fly with a Dittle Radio.
If the radio is on but I do not talk, my 7AH 12V battery lasts about 4.5
hour with the usual LNav, logger and 1530 Ipaq. The battery will read
about 11.8 volts after that time. At that point if I make a call on the
radio the chances are I will not be heard unless I am close to the field.
That is due in large part the hand held radios seem not to do very well
when it comes to receiving a call from a radio with lower battery power. I
have made it a habit of switching to the reserve battery for my final
glide and use this battery again the next day while I charge up the other
one over night. I had an experience recently whereby heaved in the
cockpit. I tried to make a call, that I would land in about 1/2 hour. I
needed a bucket of hot water and clean closing. I was not received as I
forgot to switch the battery. Lucky for me my call was being relayed and
my wife
was ready with the goods.
Regards Udo

"Tim Mara" wrote in message
...
What "Dittel" Radio?
I hear this very commonly that "I have a Dittel" radio.....and I'm sure
most
people "assume" (and we all know what that means) that a "Dittel" radio is
a
"Walter Dittel" radio .....If it's an ATR (Dittel) of any kind then it is
an
"AVIONIC DITTEL" which is far from the "WALTER DITTEL" radio is all
respects, quality, design, function and format.......No question the
Walter
Dittel radio's are among the very best ever produced for glider use....and
a
Walter Dittel (current models) radio draws and operates on lower current
than nearly all the rest, operating 100% even well below 11 volts.
Voltage (level) isn't however the only criteria, you have to have Amps
(Capacity) also....
Always question your voltmeter as well.......if you are relying on the
voltmeter in an L/Nav or for that matter, in any flight computer or even a
separate voltmeters you are reading what that voltmeter (was) calibrated
to....and often they are misleading, you can also have volts and not
capacity...so though the voltmeter may show a higher value at idle, when
loaded, transmitting for instance, with a low capacity battery source you
will lose voltage quickly. Also, voltage at the meter (Voltmeter in
computer
or otherwise) may not be the same voltage at the transmitter......cable
size, cable length, fuses, circuit breakers, all have a diminishing effect
on available current and voltage at the final source (Radio). And without
enough amperage capacity the voltage at the radio may be too low to Tx
even
though at lower voltage the Rx will be OK.
As to others receiving your transmissions, it will make no difference if
they are using a cheaper handheld radio or the best panle mounted receiver
....radio transmissions are either good or bad....and battery voltage will
have very little to do with Tx range or the receivers ability on the other
end.....if you have a low voltage, too low for the transmitter it will
normally come off as a garbled to whatever receiver gets your signal.
Finally, some radios are more voltage sensitive than others, and won't
operate fully at too low a voltage, where others can, and of course some
draw more current on standby than others. Most people "assume" that
because
a radio has a very low standby current requirement, that it will be much
easier on batteries, Standby currents are almost always very low on most
radios we would commonly use in gliders since few if any have bright LED
displays or need to run warm like older tube radios did, and "most" will
draw very similar currents on Tx, as long as their output power is
similar..so if you get High Tx power ratings, you will also get high
current
requirements in your choice of radios....for our purposes, even 1 watt
(carrier) transmitters will be more than enough providing your antenna is
good and proper.
Finally..since most better radios will operate at reasonable low (and
high)
voltages I suggest using 12V battery set-ups over 14 Volts.....providing
you
are using the same physical size (lead and acid) since in the 12V set-up
you
will be able to carry a larger capacity battery (Amp hours)..also if you
feed the radio and other equipment at higher voltage, the capacity
(use)(((amps))) will be drawn at a higher rate as well....meaning the
battery will be drained more quickly at higher voltage.and though it has
further to fall to get to the critical level than the lower voltage set,
it
will fall quicker.and with any battery, once it gets used and the capacity
becomes lower, it will fall very, very fast to where it is unusable.
I hope my explanations are correct and not too rambling.....
Tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com


Tim, your post is both enlightening and, as usual, very helpful.

It leads me to think that transceivers have different power demand
characteristics than varios and glide computers. Might not this lead to two
different battery packs, one optimized for the high current demand of
transceivers and one optimized for the low current demand of varios and
glide computers?

Bill Daniels

I don't think so......a "good" battery should easily meet the demands we as
glider owners and pilots might have....you'll find most variometers and
flight computers as well as radios have quite wide voltage ranges and as
radios typically are happy at about 11-15 volts and most variometers can
handle quite well even wider ranges, typically from 9-16 volts a single
"good" battery should work nicely....having a back-up for the minimum
essential like the 9v battery back-up offered on Borgelt B-40's is a nice
extra reserve to get you home......but aside from that, if you are having
more than the very occasional main battery failure you probably just need to
replace the old battery if it's getting weak, or up the AH capacity of the
battery to a larger size...I am a very firm believer of the KISS
principal...
good luck and best regards
Tim
Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com



"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...
Tim, your post is both enlightening and, as usual, very helpful.

It leads me to think that transceivers have different power demand
characteristics than varios and glide computers. Might not this lead to
two
different battery packs, one optimized for the high current demand of
transceivers and one optimized for the low current demand of varios and
glide computers?

Bill Daniels